Which supplements do you think are still worth taking?

[sol]

You are not the only one.

[Beth]

I’m following because this sounds so much more appealing to me than taking 500000 pills each day!

[blsm]

@SNK

It may be me, but I think supplements absolutely work. I take many but once in a while I stay free of any supplements or meds for couple weeks. By the 7th day I feel much more fatigued than when I do take supplements, and It is very easy for me to know. now it may be because my body has been used with taking supplements for last 20 years and it may have adjusted to work better with such supplements, but I know it 100% that I feel much much better when doing supplements.

Perhaps it would be interesting to stay med and supplement free for a long period (3-6months) to see if my body adjust and work same or better. I have stayed for up to 3 weeks but the sluggishness and fogginess become a bit too much for me.

I’m the same. Every now and then I take a break from supplements just to get back to baseline and then decide I prefer how I feel taking them. At least I finally learned to quit throwing things out only to end up buying the same ones again! Hahaha

[Neo]

@desertshores

IMO most supplements have no subjective effects. Most of the supplements I take are based on the merit of their studies.

Charles and @约瑟夫_拉维尔 the nice things with some of them like taurine is that we can measure and track them and use the data to guide (does not work for all things)

Here is an example:

Scientists Discover That Taurine Promotes Anti-Aging

Others here may find this interesting: Reporting on a Nine Month Self-Experiment in Taurine Supplementation Today’s post is a report from the community on the impact of taurine supplementation on a few biomarkers of interest. Taurine is a dietary amino acid, and circulating levels of taurine influence any number of biological processes. Taurine levels decrease with age in a variety of species; in humans circulating taurine is halved by age 50. You might recall that supplementation with taurine was demonstrated to modestly extend life in mice and improve health in old non-human primates. This may be largely due to enhanced performance of the antioxidant glutathione, and you might recall that other approaches to upregulation of glutathione activity have been shown to produce benefits in old humans, dampening oxidative stress and associated inflammation. A few human clinical trials of taurine supplementation have been conducted, but the results are not all that conclusive, other than …

[Joseph_Lavelle]

Yes. but I’m skeptical about about benefits that require faith in deficiency based on age. I want to feel an effect.

[Neo]

@约瑟夫_拉维尔 - I think we can be in touch with things in our bodies to a certain degree and think it’s important to train that awareness, at the same time the thresholds that we can detect feeling wise are not always the optimal ones

For instance, if you wait to drink water until you are thirsty and “feel” the sensation of no longer being thirsty you were probably too dehydrated and drinking a bit more water before has been better

If you don’t eat too much salt you may not feel it

If I sleep 30 min less than my optimal duration I don’t really feel it, but in would think the 30 min would have been valuable for optimal health and longevity

Decreasing my heart rate and increasing my heart rate variability I can feel in large steps, but even the small steps over time are probably valuable and nothing I can feel

Having lower Apo B is nothing most (any?) people are able to feel? Same with the effects eg a good Apo B lowering med that fits the person - feeling it may only be due to side effects and hence not the right dose or choice of medicine

In a similar way I did not feel my levels of Omega 3 and hence would be going blind in how much to modulate fish intake and supplementation of DHA vs EPA

Do these examples help?

Yes, we feel other things like fasting, or eating things that give a sugar high, or rapamycin, but not all valuable processed are like that

[Michele_Watson]

Taurine with magnesium has helped me significantly with sleep-I added on high dose PEA (600mg) and 3mg pure melatonin and this has stopped my trigeminal pain (ear and eye) waking me during the night. For the first time in 5 years I am sleeping well.

[Joseph_Lavelle]

@Neo I don’t see a direct connection between the two thoughts. The fact that some illnesses or nutritional deficiencies cannot be felt does not mean I have those unfelt illnesses or nutritional deficiencies.

I think it would be sensible to

1. Limit nutritional supplements or pharmaceuticals to avoid polypharmacy issues

2. Only take what is needed to correct known / measured deficiencies or illnesses, and only until resolved

3. Take the proper dose to have an effect

4. Expect that the chemicals will have variable effects due to differences in digestion and genetics and more. Look for a positive and negative effect in biomarkers. Be ready to change interventions.

5. Buy a quality chemical that has been sourced, packaged, stored and shipped safely to have the best chance of a positive outcome.

6. Look for non chemical solutions as a primary step. Exercise, sleep, sunshine

7. Look for interventions that involve removal of an external cause before adding a new chemical. Remove: stress, preservatives, chemicals in tap water

I have added another rule:
8. When taking a supplement based on “a study” or because “everyone thinks it’s a good one” and i don’t feel anything, i quit taking it. It keeps my list of ingested chemicals short.

[DeStrider]

There are some things that we know happens to almost everyone and therefore we should address those. Some can be measured easily such as vitamin D or through a lipid panel or other blood test. Other factors are not so easy to test for such as amino acids. Instead of regularly testing everything like Bryan Johnson, we can make educated assumptions about what we need and supplement for these deficiencies.

For instance, we know that arterial plaque builds up over time so we should lower our cholesterol.
We also know we produce fewer of the amino acids we need to be healthy such as taurine, cysteine and glycine. We know which vitamins and minerals the general population is deficient in. We can assume that we will follow the same pattern as the general population and address those issues before they become problems and age us.

However, I don’t think we can feel most of what our body needs. And if we can feel it, it may mean we have already damaged or aged our bodies.

It’s almost as if damaging and aging are becoming synonymous.

[Neo]

@Joseph_Lavelle

8. When taking a supplement based on “a study” or because “everyone thinks it’s a good one” and i don’t feel anything, i quit taking it. It keeps my list of ingested chemicals short.

My thoughts were connected to your first post that said

I want to feel an effect.

And connected to the new articulation of that point from your latest post quested above about “stop if you don’t feel”

What I am saying is that there are important things that occur in our bodies that we cannot feel and in those cases testing can help guide whether to stop or not

To keep it very focused. Do you agree that higher than optimal Apo B levels are generally not something we can “feel”?

And that since diet and exercise often won’t be enough to reach optimal Apo B levels many people will need to use some medical molecule(s) - especially as we have a good arsenal of safe, effective ones to choose from based on countless studies of cholesterol and cardiovascular disease?

Hence - in that context we should not avoid or stop taking the medicine because we cannot feel it - if our blood tests shows it having a good effect?

(In fact in this type of case it is *good that we cannot feel it since feeling Apo B lowering meds would generally mean experiencing side effects)

[Neo]

@DeStrider

Some can be measured easily such as vitamin D or through a lipid panel or other blood test. Other factors are not so easy to test for such as amino acids.

But it’s not that more difficult to measure amino acids? In your case you could do it via Life Extension the next time you are in the US and anyway drawing blood for you Apo B that you mentioned.

We can assume that we will follow the same pattern as the general population and address those issues before they become problems and age us.

I agree that it generally can be good to take action before too late

But I think we actually should strive to test and use data and not assume we each are like the general population which we def are not.

[DeStrider]

The more testing the better, but I doubt most of the general population will do a lot of testing. A normal annual health screening seems a bridge too far for many.

Unfortunately it usually takes something breaking before most people in the general population do something.

The people reading this here are the exception and not the rule.

[Neo]

Here are some thoughts on your list

@Joseph_Lavelle

I think it would be sensible to

1. Limit nutritional supplements or pharmaceuticals to avoid polypharmacy issues

I concur, and think there might be a tendency on the forum to go overboard

2. Only take what is needed to correct known / measured deficiencies or illnesses, and only until resolved

Agree with the “only” part. But I think many things should be to seek optimal levels and not wait until deficiency or illness. Part of this is what is the benefit to risks ratio? For Vitamin D, B12, Omega 3, Apo B and probably HbA1c and glucose patterns it’s probably better to supplement to get to optimal rather than stopping once there is no deficiency or disease?

3. Take the proper dose to have an effect

Yes, but for anything with a risk might be good to start low and then increase until one sees the effect so one that does not overshoot.

4. Expect that the chemicals will have variable effects due to differences in digestion and genetics and more. Look for a positive and negative effect in biomarkers. Be ready to change interventions.

Totally, 100%.

5. Buy a quality chemical that has been sourced, packaged, stored and shipped safely to have the best chance of a positive outcome.

Totally, 100%.

6. Look for non chemical solutions as a primary step. Exercise, sleep, sunshine

Yes, but don’t get stuck there for things like Apo B if those things do not work.

(Sunshine is a bid more complicated as radiation can be damaging whether from natural or non natural source (the sun is basically countless nuclear bombs going off per second…)

7. Look for interventions that involve removal of an external cause before adding a new chemical. Remove: stress, preservatives, chemicals in tap water

Totally, 100%.

I have added another rule:
8. When taking a supplement based on “a study” or because “everyone thinks it’s a good one” and i don’t feel anything, i quit taking it. It keeps my list of ingested chemicals short.

Strongly disagree this means that we would not do several safe and effective things like optimizing our Apo B (perhaps the single most important things most humans and longevity optimizer alike can do), Vit D, Omega 3 Index, etc

[Neo]

@约瑟夫_拉维尔 any thoughts on the post directly above with reflections/“potential refinements” to your list of principles?

And on this reply:

Which supplements do you think are still worth taking? - #454 by Neo

[John_Hemming]

I think my issue is with Polypharmacy.

I deliberately take molecules that have similar effects to create polypharmacy.

[Joseph_Lavelle]

Nothing to add to my description of my approach. You do you.

[Neo]

Ok, I’m just trying to “do me” in the most optimal way so was trying to ask if you think I still was missing something and if so what errors in my logic/understanding I was making.

[Joseph_Lavelle]

@neo. You are a smart person who is thinking about the longevity topic very thoroughly as far as I can tell. I can’t boil the ocean with you right now. Maybe another time.

[Neo]

Thx @约瑟夫_拉维尔 No worries. All good.

[AnUser]

https://twitter.com/DBelardoMD/status/1772731789976514649
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