A Medical Doctor with a PhD in bio-chemistry,{from Cornell University Medical College in Cell Biology and Genetics] who is Professor & Chair, Translational Medicine, at The University of Salford, The University of Salford, Laboratory of Translational Medicine - Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)

Who’s laboratory is currently ranked number 1 in England, number 2 in the UK, and number 39 word-wide.

This persons published work is “bro-science”?

1 Like

You need to add how many times per week.

The shaded boxes are the days to take the meds. They are meant to be checked off by me each time I take a dose.

2 Likes

Now I see how it works!

Thanks to the few who are trying the regimen, we will have a few data points as anecdotal evidence. One data point (Danlalane) is in. DAV affects the gut microbiome.

My bet is on the low dose approach. Hope to hear from Rmun and blsm when their trial ends.

1 Like

For God so loved the world, he gave us @KarlT

1 Like

I don’t agree with that definition.
This would be my interpretation:
A combination of the following:
Scientific data
Anecdotes/n of 1
Word of mouth
Trial and error
Willingness to take risk for potential gain

I realize you probably don’t respect Dr Attia, but in his podcasts, he and others will note that some useful information comes from the bro science

4 Likes

Thanks dude, you’re a blessing.

@Joseph I have no problem with the study and data you’re presenting. I see the problem being 1. It’s limited data. You’re not presenting a dozen studies clearly showing this works.
2. You’re not presenting the risk side of this intervention which is significant and you guys just beat up on @AnUser for mentioning it.

3 Likes

The ‘religious zealotry’ is not only accurate - but completely surprising to me. The first surprise was so many people jumping on the bandwagon on very scant evidence both for and against in this thread. The second surprise is the apparently complete dismissal of downside or risk with taking two antibiotics. Without both risk, reward and the probability for any treatment to work it is not possible for people to make a risk vs. reward assessment.

A thread of ANY compound should have the possible reward, the possible risk, and the certainty/uncertainty depended on the quality of evidence. Like I said earlier we had many posters starting saying they were going to start this therapy and no one bothered to google for risks with the antibiotics and post them…

1 Like

Whenever anyone starts thinking that only they have the “one truth”, it greatly raises my skepticism alarms.

The simple truth is that biology is extremely complex. The list of things that “seem good” in early testing, but later prove to be harmful, is long.

In my view, humility and recognition that there is a more than reasonable chance that any of us is wrong on something we believe is “true”, is probably a helpful thing to keep in mind.

And, when people spend their academic lives in medical school and have years of clinical experience I tend to give them a lot more weight than my (or other layman’s) cursory review of some research papers and popular science articles. Of course, doctors and PHDs are all humans, they make mistakes like all of us… but any medical professional or PHD participating here should, I think, be considered “one of the good guys” who is very interested in longevity and the latest science in this area, so my immediate predisposition is that we welcome and appreciate their input.

We’re all here with the recognition that there is a large “grey area” in the longevity data for all the drugs and supplements we are taking or considering taking.

I believe we move forward when we are most clear-eyed in our reviews of our current and potential longevity agents. There is no one “truth”. The more data we have and the more we identify the potential risks and measurable benefits, the better we are are able to make decisions and risk-based assessments.

I think @KarlT and @AnUser provide valuable input here in this thread on potential risks, and I thank them for that. I think you, @Joseph , would benefit by also being thankful. Because they are bring up risks that we may not have considered, or have under-valued.

As I say frequently in these forums, go hard on the science, but go easy on the people. We are all trying to make decisions here based on imperfect information. The more thought and considerations from knowledgeable and thoughtful people we can bring to bear on the task at hand, the more we all benefit.

I really think we all need to be thinking that we are all working together to identify the best course of action, based on the data at hand, and our own personal health considerations, life considerations and personal risk profiles. And always be ready to change your mind based on new data.

And, this is an ongoing process that will go on for the foreseeable future…

I was just reading this article by an ex-pharma guy, and it reiterates the fact that we are all going to be in a very “gray area” as far as longevity drug knowledge goes, for a very long time…

This [longevity drugs and therapies] all sounds terrific. However, there is a major challenge for discovering and developing anti-aging drugs. How does one design a clinical trial to convince patients, physicians, payers and, especially, the FDA that a drug actually works?

To do this, a company would have to prove that its drug extends lives. You can’t test such a drug in young or even middle-aged people, as these groups still have considerable life left—assuming a life expectancy of 80 years. Thus, you would probably need to study the drug in healthy 70-year-olds (with a placebo control group as comparator) and then follow these subjects for a decade or more to see if those on the drug live meaningfully longer than those in the placebo group. In order to see a statistically meaningful longevity effect, however, the study would need a minimum of 20,000 subjects. This “outcomes” trial would be similar to what is now done for new drugs to treat heart disease, in which a drug’s efficacy is determined by whether it reduced heart attacks and strokes. Such studies are not cheap. The costs can be on the order of $2 billion.

Given these enormous challenges, why would anyone actually engage in anti-aging R&D drugs? After all, the people investing in these field are accomplished scientists and investors. They are aware of these challenges. Despite the hype around extending the human life span by 10 to 20 years, these companies will not look to conduct life extension studies right out of the gate. Rather, the first drugs will be tested against age-related diseases. For example, one company, Life Biosciences, hopes to use its work in epigenome reprogramming to treat strokes that occur in the back of the eye—a condition known as non-arteritic anterior ischemic optic neuropathy. While a new treatment for this disease would be welcomed, it is a far cry from adding a decade to the life expectancy of Baby Boomers.

So, when reading the hype about new scientific breakthroughs that offer the promise of the “Fountain of Youth,” admire the science. But keep in mind that it’s going to be a long while before such drugs are actually available.

John L. LaMattina is the former president of Pfizer Global R&D and the author of Pharma & Profits – Balancing Innovation, Medicine, and Drug Prices .)

15 Likes

This is the exactly the same story as with the ivermectin people during the covid pandemic. “It won the nobel prize”, when you run out of science, you start with stories.

Do you think that the study that’s based on inhibiting breast cancer cells in a petri dish has more relevancy and generalizability than a clinical trial about relapse in cancer, which is what CSC’s can do? I think you’re having your thumb on the scale here.

That’s very well said. I may have to quote you on that. Oh, I guess I just did.
Anyway thanks for the timely input.

I have no ill will towards anyone here. If I sound arrogant at times, I apologize and feel free to call me out. If I disagree with someone, my primary goal is to point out for the newbies that we don’t know everything and don’t assume what you read here is gospel.

9 Likes

Why do you only cite minor studies with sick people to prove your point?

What a pathetic straw man argument that is. Are you saying they are identical? I say the same thing to metformin deniers. Okay, you don’t like metformin? Don’t take it. You don’t like azithromycin? Please don’t take it. Just don’t try to convince others that it is an unsafe drug.

4 Likes

How else will you study some drugs effect on cancer? The study had nearly 500 people, that’s not a minor study.
And why don’t you answer the questions I asked?

You don’t get it. I am not. I am just pointing out the potential downside. It is information that people can use with their risk-vs-reward analysis. For some it changes, for others it doesn’t.

If you didn’t start arguing with me, I wouldn’t have to point out what I think are the flaws with your argumentation.

You know who said this:
The original statement is about the safety of azithromycin, a particular drug, according to the World Health Organization. The reply, however, shifts the focus from azithromycin to a different topic, ivermectin, and dismisses it by suggesting that mentioning awards like the Nobel Prize is a way of “running out of science” and resorting to stories.

By bringing up ivermectin and implying that mentioning awards or stories indicates a lack of scientific basis, the reply misrepresents the original argument about azithromycin’s safety. This diversion creates a false comparison, making it seem as though the original statement is based on stories rather than scientific evidence. This is a classic straw man tactic, where the argument is misrepresented to make it easier to attack.

So, go your merry way and think that you are smarter than the World Health Organization or anyone else who disagrees with your viewpoint.

You basically say: You can agree with me or you can be wrong.
So, I won’t continue to waste my time responding to you.

7 Likes

If you’re citing the WHO or awards, and not science, to try and strengthen your case, you are telling stories. Especially if you cite awards.

And I did check that citation, [20] is a link to World Health Organization
Model List of Essential Medicine 2019, which only says which medicines are the best and safest in each respective category. That does not in of itself say how safe or unsafe a drug is, only relative to all the other drugs within the same category.

If so every drug is safe on that list. Look at it and you’ll find some very unsafe drugs, but which obviously which can have risk-reward that is good in specific cases…

1 Like

@Joseph. This has nothing to do with truth. It has to do with respect. I respect medical professionals, and I hope you will too one day. I think you are missing out on key information if you don’t listen to their perspective. Remember that questioning is not bad if it leads to an improved outcome.

We are all on the same side here. Let’s live longer and better together.

7 Likes

Useful article I just found, especially the definition of a quack and what type of quacks exist and what quackery is. Nobody is perfect, however, and we should all recognize our quack-like behaviors we can have from time to time.

But the entire article is fantastic, very enlightening.

1 Like