I think focusing on body composition is not quite the right way to think about this. Absolute strength is what I want to preserve in old age, because that’s what enables us to engage in activities and remain independent.
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Davin8r
#378
Functionally speaking, yes strength is most important, but I also like the aesthetic aspect of muscle mass, so I’m going for both.
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Same. But ofc more mass is a prerequisite for strength once you get to a certain strength level. So let’s get big and strong.
Size vs. Strength
People also overlook the fact that the frail man is not treated with as much respect as the strong man. This impacts quality of life every day, and I think it may impact treatment by doctors. Being strong matters.
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Some people believe that maintaining muscle mass is metabolically useful, muscles can function as glucose disposal reserves etc. Others dispute this importance (Valter Longo). Mostly it seems muscle is important in ADL and preventing falls.
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RapMet
#381
All good, but you you’ve really made me think since you mentioned that we need solutions for:
- thymus
- Elastin
I’m afraid that unless we find a way to tackle those two, we would still be looking at best maybe 110.
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adssx
#382
GLP-1 Receptor Agonist Treatment Improves Fasting and Postprandial Lipidomic Profiles Independently of Diabetes and Weight Loss 2024
In adults without diabetes but with severe obesity, 3-month treatment with exenatide improved fasting and postprandial lipidomic profiles associated with cardiometabolic risk by decreasing saturated species (triacylglycerols [TAGs], ceramides, lysophosphatidylcholines) while increasing seven unsaturated phospholipid species (phosphatidylcholine, lysophosphatidylcholine) with protective effects on cardiometabolic risk compared with control.
Exenatide blunted the rise in postprandial triglycerides, especially saturated TAGs.
Postprandial triglyceride reduction was associated to decreased postprandial free fatty acid clearance, with lower saturated free fatty acid incorporation into newly synthesized lipids (TAGs and ceramides).
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I thought size mattered?? LoL!
I do agree that strength not mass is the better indicator.
I had posted on this muscle loss thing a while ago.
I lost 50lbs over 14 months. My Withings scale indicated I had 121lb muscle when I weighed 199lbs = 60% muscle. At 140lb it indicates my muscle mass is 109lb now - 78% muscle. So did I actually lose 12lb of muscle? or did the muscle mass/volume decrease as a result of the loss of inter-muscle fat? As indicated my body weight to muscle mass has improved significantly.
Knowing that there is inter-muscle fat (having been a butcher as a kid) my “beef” with this muscle loss distraction is that anyone who loses a significant amount of weight via pretty much any method is going to experience muscle “shrinkage” as the inter-muscle fat decreases. I don’t think enough people understand this aspect of weight loss.
Also I’m quite a bit stronger today than I was 14 months ago and my muscles have gained some “body” over the past 7 weeks of working out. The transformation is pretty cool 
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RapMet
#384
Something is not jiving here. So, you weigh 140lbs and 109lbs of that is muscle? Well unless your bones are the size of a pencil, your brain the size of a bird brain and your skin and organs that of a cat, I can’t see how all those will only weigh 30lbs together, not even including your fat which it has to be at least 10% or 14 lbs. Long story short most likely you have nowhere near 109lbs of muscle mass if you weigh 140lbs.
I thought size mattered?? LoL! - YES it does matter but NOT if you measure it wrong 
You may want to look at this : ≡ 20 Important Organs of the Human Body List + Size & Weight (adducation.info)
for reference and to make it easy an average human has 11lbs of blood, 20lbs of bones, 15lbs of skin, 15-30lbs of fat, and then another 10-15lbs of other organs. Consider yourself lucky if you have 70lbs muscle mass.
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In Europe the Withings Body Cardio scale is an approved medical device that provides accurate data for PWV - Pulse Wave Velocity. This measures arterial elasticity. They achieved their approval through several studies comparing it to PWV devices used in the medical field. They have a newer model called the Body Segment (shows where the fat is) which is more accurate and one with 6 lead ECG. Withings is developing some of the best in class consumer monitoring and measuring devices.
While the absolute numbers are most likely not perfect, the trend is what I usually look at.
Also what is fat? the brain is mostly fat, not all tissues are measured separately with this scale. My brain is “lumped” in the fat catagory
Various organs have a fat content, muscle content and their own tissue signature. Since this model scale doesn’t separate out where the water, fat and muscle reside, there is a good chance these measurements are a composite.
As you can see from these charts, the bone content has not changed over 4 years. Since bone is very localized, that measurement is probably reasonably accurate.
Screen shot with Muscle - Fat - Bone - as a percent
Screen shot with Muscle - Fat - Bone - as a weight
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RapMet
#387
I hear you, but even if we say ok blood and some fat (not all) are a composite of other organs, only skin and bones are over 30lbs for an average person. I think @Davin8r is right it depends on what method or what device is being used to measure muscle mass. But even without looking at any info on specific weight of different organs, or body parts I know that MOST animal dressing weight is 55%-60% of live weight and that includes even the bones and some marble fat, and I know for sure some animals have bigger muscles than humans. , so no neither you nor I have anywhere near 109lbs of muscle mass (and I do weigh quite a bit more than you do).
However I have to assume that in the measurements above I guess everything is lumped in only two categories muscle and fat. So, in muscle probably they include the bones, heart and other muscle organs. either way it is a bit misleading.
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Excellent points on the weights of various body parts.
I don’t disagree on the absolute numbers, I don’t pay a lot of attention to those other than the body weight as that one is pretty accurate. I do pay more attention to trends and how I look, which is pretty spectacular LoL!
Animal dressing weight… the hide is quite heavy. We used to kill for the hide and store them until the hide market was high, then cash out.
I’ve killed thousands of cattle, pigs and lambs and have dressed hundreds of deer, moose and bear. But that was a long time ago Also dead weight is quite different from live weight, the blood drained out during the sticking process is quite heavy.
And then in humans there is the interstitial organ. Only discovered in 2017 or 18? It collapses and basically disappears at the time of death. I’m guessing it does not make much difference between live and dead weight though.
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RapMet
#389
Never heard of such thing? Is that where the spirit resides?
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It’s the largest organ we have… probably home to my ego not sure about the spirit LoL!
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I did a poor job of communicating agreement with @Davin8r . I was trying to say that I see more mass as a prerequisite for getting stronger once you get to a certain level of training. So that’s one reason why I’m training for hypertrophy now. I also like looking good at the pool/beach and it’s important in my work environment. Too much strength training and I get pretty beat up.
Re: body comp, it looks like my Hologic DEXA results put my bone mineral content at 6.43 lbs, then there’s fat mass and lean. I guess bones don’t amount to much. We won’t get reliable estimates of skeletal muscle mass without CT or MRI, but if these data from 2000 are still relevant (but for fluffy people), we can get a rough idea of the ratio of SMM to total lean mass. The mean values are pretty much what @RapMet quoted (70 lbs).
Leaner people have less SMM, of course.
I’m fine with just tracking lean mass deltas, and I prefer the DEXA total LM to appendicular b/c appendicular doesn’t say anything about chest and back.
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Great data!
One of the things I like about this forum.
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Here’s a rather interesting article about ancient Japanese ancestry. When looking at extremely ancient genes, so ancient that humans got them from Denisovans and other hominids, we see that they can contribute to very different reactions to modern medications:
https://scitechdaily.com/who-are-the-japanese-new-dna-study-shocks-scientists/
Quote:
" For instance, other researchers have shown that people in Tibet have Denisovan-derived DNA within a gene called EPAS1, which is believed to have aided their colonization of high-altitude environments.[3] More recently, scientists discovered that a cluster of Neanderthal-inherited genes on chromosome 3—a trait that is present in roughly half of all south Asians—is linked to a higher risk of respiratory failure and other severe symptoms of Covid-19.[4]
The analysis by Terao’s team shed light on 44 ancient DNA regions present in Japanese people today, most of which are unique to East Asians. These include a Denisovan-derived one, located within the NKX6-1 gene, known to be associated with type 2 diabetes, which the researchers say could affect a person’s sensitivity to semaglutide, an oral medication used to treat the disease. They also identified 11 Neanderthal-derived segments linked to coronary artery disease, prostate cancer, rheumatoid arthritis, and four other conditions."
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adssx
#394
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adssx
#395
GLP-1 programs the neurovascular landscape 2024
Readily available nutrient-rich foods exploit our inherent drive to overconsume, creating an environment of overnutrition. This transformative setting has led to persistent health issues, such as obesity and metabolic syndrome. The development of glucagon-like peptide-1 receptor (GLP-1R) agonists reveals our ability to pharmacologically manage weight and address metabolic conditions. Obesity is directly linked to chronic low-grade inflammation, connecting our metabolic environment to neurodegenerative diseases. GLP-1R agonism in curbing obesity, achieved by impacting appetite and addressing associated metabolic defects, is revealing additional benefits extending beyond weight loss. Whether GLP-1R agonism directly impacts brain health or does so indirectly through improved metabolic health remains to be elucidated. In exploring the intricate connection between obesity and neurological conditions, recent literature suggests that GLP-1R agonism may have the capacity to shape the neurovascular landscape. Thus, GLP-1R agonism emerges as a promising strategy for addressing the complex interplay between metabolic health and cognitive well-being.
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This is the key sentence as I see it. Elsewhere I asked what do GLP-1 agonists bring to the table above and beyond SGLT2i for a specific kind of presentation: the subject (in this case myself) who never struggles with appetite or weight. I appreciate that for many curbing appetite is key, as is weight loss, and so GLP-1 agonists are vital.
But these are not my problems. I did eight years of pretty robust CR, with zero issues as far as appetite and hunger. Now I am on a set diet, eat my portions and don’t snack, so there isn’t even an opportunity to overeat. I’d have to go out of my way to take extra portions, which simply doesn’t happen. My bowl is of a certain size, and that’s it, there are no seconds; f.ex. I have a small cup I fill with a few peanuts, some walnuts and a fistful of almonds - I consume it daily, but that’s it, I don’t understand this concept of “can’t stop eating nuts”, the cup has a bottom and that’s it for the day. In other words, overeating and weight control does not apply to my situation.
Therefore if the sole benefit of suppressing GLP-1 is that appetite is suppressed and downstream of that weight is controlled, I need it as a fish needs a bicycle as a sage once said.
On the other hand if GLP-1 suppression provides other benefits than those mediated by appetite suppression and weight control, I’m all ears.
I’m looking to take SGLT2i (empa) soon, because my blood glucose is high despite a good diet and exercise, and metformin at 500mg doesn’t do jack for me and I’m unwilling to go higher. So if empa can dump excess blood sugar, that’s great, plus apparently it can provide benefits above and beyond just getting rid of excess serum glucose. All with an apparently good risk profile. That’s a win. What does a GLP-1 agonist do for me beyond what empa can?
I was very eager to read about the remodeling of the “neurovascular landscape”, but it all came to a screeching halt with that sentence, which in my mind is nothing more than taping your mouth shut so you don’t overeat and gain weight. If that’s all a GLP-1 agonist does, I’ll pass.
adssx
#397
Again: many GLP-1RAs barely suppress appetite (albiglutide, exenatide, dulaglutide?). That’s why it took so long to repurpose GLP-1RAs from diabetes to weight loss. On top of that, people with T2D lose way less weight on GLP-1RAs compared to overweight people without diabetes. In the PD trial of lixisenatide, patients didn’t lose weight. Obesity is protective against PD, and yet GLP-1RAs seem protective against PD.
“Whether GLP-1R agonism directly impacts brain health or does so indirectly through improved metabolic health remains to be elucidated.”: they say “metabolic health” and not “appetite suppression” or “weight loss”. Metabolic health is broader: BP, glycemic control, lipids, inflammation, liver enzymes, etc. See, for instance: Intermittent (oral) Rybelsus / Semaglutide use in healthy individuals? - #382 by adssx . For sure, the effect of GLP-1RAs goes beyond weight loss. But does it go beyond optimizing “everything”? Does it do something additional in the brain?
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