While this thread is about the risks of too much sodium, due to it raising blood pressure and possibly damaging blood vessel walls and the kidney due to salt level spikes in the blood after high salt intake, I wanted to raise the issue of the risks of low sodium. While high sodium causes long term damage it rarely causes immediate harm, while low sodium can rapidly cause serious complications including dizziness, catatonia (temporary complete paralysis) and is the main cause of slip and fall accidental deaths in the elderly due to nerve conduction being impaired by low sodium levels. In fact total mortality rates rise as salt intake is reduced beyond a certain point in the diet, even though cardiac mortality continues to go down.

My late father was a long-time diabetic and suffered from low sodium, probably caused by his high blood sugar levels above 180 acting as a diuretic, triggering the kidney to dump blood sugar along blood plasma. This also results in dehydration and the normal response of drinking water (without added electrolytes) to compensate results in low blood sodium levels. My father spent his last 2 years with me and my wife (after my stepmother did not want to take care of him) so I got to see first hand the effect of low sodium. He was always dizzy on his feet and forced to spent most of his time lying down, in spite of us adding as much salt as possible to his diet. One morning I found him in bed unable to move with all limbs catatonic (stiff and unable to bend) : I still remember his eyes moving and following me but otherwise he was unable to communicate or move and I can only imagine how that feels. I called 911 who took him to the ER where they ran some tests to rule out other issues, but ended up just treating him with hypertonic (3% NaCL) IV, after which he was back to normal within an hour. We were told his blood sodium level was 128 which caused most nerves to stop conducting signals to his muscles.

Just last year my wife (age 71) 2 weeks after her 3rd scheduled surgery in 10 months (back surgery, rotator cuff repair and knee replacement) suddenly developed dizziness and fell a couple times and was taken to the ER where they ran tons of tests all of which came back negative. Over the next 6 months more tests were run (MRI, CAT, 24-hour heart monitor, 30-day heart monitor etc) all coming back negative. Her sodium levels were on the lower end of normal (around 135) but not actually low, so it wasn’t until a review by a cardiologist that they figured out that she was suffering from orthostatic hypotension (low blood pressure when standing), probably caused by plasma loss from all the bedrest periods after the 3 surgeries. The kidney tries real hard to keep blood sodium levels within range, and when body sodium level drop too low will dump excess water from the blood to bring sodium concentration back in range, but that can cause blood pressure to drop, initially only when standing, eventually at all times. This also means it is really hard to tell from blood measurements if your body’s sodium levels are too low (or too high). The cardiologist said she squeezed my wife’s limbs and could detect no tissue bloating, which is the only way to tell if the body has excess sodium (or is depleted), but I am not sure if there is an easy way to check that yourself. My wife had also lost 20% of body weight over the previous year due to taking Mounjaro, which my wife was really pleased with, but may have made the problem with orthostatic hypotension worse, since weight loss naturally results in blood pressure going down. My wife’s blood pressure meds were reduced AND her diuretic discontinued and she was told to consume at least 32 oz of electrolyte drink per day to raise her plasma volume. The electrolyte recommended (Normalyte) is basically 1/4 teaspoon salt + 1/4 teaspoon Potassium Citrate + 1/2 teaspoon Sodium Citrate + 1 teaspoon dextrose (per 16 oz water), and we add lemon juice + extra sweetener to make it more palatable.

I don’t suffer from orthostic hypotention, but my blood pressure has also steadily fallen as I lost weight over the last 2 years (down from 205lb to 145lb) and have had to reduce my blood pressure medication to keep by BP above 100. During my recent colonoscopy, they had to give me IV saline for 30 minutes before the precedure because my blood pressure was 80/50 (I felt normal and did not experience any dizzness walking into the hospital). I now take 16 oz of the same electrolyte mix every morning : I figure this also covers the bases by providing the citrate for the citrate protocol discussed elsewhere in these pages. Also, I noticed a clear mental sharpening that happens in the hours after I drink the electrolyte mix (in the morning) so the brain clearly seems to benefit from extra sodium as well.

Bottom line : I would recommend first treating high blood pressure with exercise (or massage), weight loss (if needed) and medications and only as a last resort reduce salt intake. There is no benefit of reducing salt intake if you don’t suffer from high blood pressure and no easy way to know how close you are to triggering the serious harm from low sodium levels. I would still avoid consuming high salt foods without plenty of fluids since the temporary high blood sodium spikes will damage blood vessels and the kidney in the long run.

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My story starts different.
After fainting a few times my GP referred me on my request to a specialist of internal medicine.
Though I have a bit high LDL-cholesterol value my blood vessels looked quite OK, no endocrinological test were done and I was ordered to take extra sodium chloride. On my question how much the answer was : as much as you like.
After two years I had a very dry mouth almost every night and a stuffy nose.
When I had to stay in hospital for an appendicitis which I had been walking around with for some 12 days the surgeon supervising treatment with antibiotics noticed on day three that my potassium levels were low. I had to take 30 ml of concentrated KCl solution and ordered add tomatoes and bananas to my eating habits as potassium source.

IMMEDIATELY my dry mouths and my stuffy noses are gone.

My advice for everyone who has spells of low blood pressure and has to take high amounts of salt is: have a bottle of AA isotonic or lemon taste, or Normalyte at hand. You will notice your body is craving for it. You can make your own mix using O.R.S. sachets.
Have potassium (Kalium) added to your periodic lab checks.

After three moths I have enough from the inconvenience of eating bananas and tomatoes and started potassium chloride to replace that and reduced my sodium chloride(natriumchloride) intake.
So far so good. :grinning:

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My current experimentation is looking at the balance between sodium and potassiun with little chloride i dont have an answer, but it is clearly quite complicated.

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I bought a low sodium cookbook recently. The author was on dialysis and the kidney transplant list due to complications from lupus. In her anecdotal report she was able to get off dialysis and the transplant list in part by going on a low sodium diet of <1000 mg/day. Although this certainly doesn’t apply to rest of us it she has some good recipes and tips for eating low sodium/no added salt. One thing that she mentions for traveling/on the go is baby food! We are all trying to be as youthful as possible here so why not? Hahaha
I’ve been checking baby food labels recently and for the first foods/puréed versions none that I’ve seen so far have any added salt. I’ve only looked at popular brands like BeechNut and Gerber so far. I’m planning on trying out some different ones in preparation for vacation this summer so I’m not succumbing to high sodium fast food or gas station snacks. I’ve noticed in the past when I’m on vacation I’d always gain a few pounds despite not eating more calories and I’m sure pretty sure it’s due to being away from home and eating higher sodium foods. I’m sure I’ll still have a higher than normal intake because of the logistics of eating meals prepared by other family members but I’m excited to see if replacing some of the snacks or fast food I’d normally have with baby food helps with the travel bloat.

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@tananth interesting bit about vibration. I have been successfully using a massage gun after resistance training to reduce muscle soreness. I wonder if the mechanism is the same.

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I am flip-flopping from McDonald’s diet to “healthy” diet probably because I eat too few calories, so if I focus on high calories and “healthy” it should be much better :thinking:

But I don’t know what parameter to optimize by, I’ll have to think about this more.

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Protein > unsaturated fat > carbs

@AnUser, I actually had to take classes to relearn how to eat healthy for me after years of carnivore. I’m not ashamed to admit it either and it really worked out great. I do believe healthy eating it’s somewhat individual based on what’s practical and decently enjoyable for someone. Anyway I’ve been doing Marty Kendall’s Optimizing Nutrition classes and have found the Macros and Micros classes very beneficial. I’ve gotten my diet quality score up in the 90’s when it was previously in the 60-70 range. It can be so challenging to navigate eating in our modern food environment.

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Just noticed this other thread “Have you tried vivoo ?” about a urine test strip that measures salt levels in urine. If that is accurate, it may be a way to know if you are consuming too much salt in your diet, since a healthy kidney will dump any excess salt into urine. Conversely, urine always contains a minimum salt concentration, even if your body is low in salt/sodium, so if the urine salt level is low, you need to up your salt intake and/or avoid hydrating with just water (which forces the kidney to dump excess water along with some of the remaining sodium, even if sodium is low).

One thing that is unclear is what time of the day you should test your urine with the vivoo test strip. Lab ordered urine tests for sodium require a 24-hour collection of urine, presumably to avoid being misled by temporary spikes in dietery salt (that would result in temporary high levels of salt in urine) or high water intake (that would result in temporary low levels of salt in urine).

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Great idea. Thanks for the tip!

Here are some notes I kept when first starting to research this topic more that point towards us generally being better adapted to higher potassium and less sodium. For the record I’m just an ordinary Jane (not a doctor/not health advice) sharing information but if a person is unwell it’s probably not wise to consider undertaking any major dietary shift without medical guidance.
“Hunter-gatherer intake of calcium, for instance, was estimated as roughly twice current values (10) largely due to greater consumption of vegetables and fruits. Hunter-gatherer consumption of electrolytes was essentially the inverse of modern tendencies, with relatively elevated levels of potassium and greatly reduced (by nearly an order of magnitude) intake of sodium. This observation is explained both by the high potassium content of wild game and uncultivated plants and the fact that hunter-gatherers typically had no access to sodium chloride other than that contained in their primary foods (12).

The diet of our hunter-gatherer ancestors consisted mainly of fruit, vegetables and game, and provided small amounts of sodium (Na+) and large amounts of potassium (K+). During the late Palaeolithic times, estimated dietary Na+ intake was ∼30 mmol/day (∼690 mg/day) and dietary K+ intake was ∼280 mmol/day (∼11 g/day) [1]. This is very different from our current diet, which contains large amounts of Na+ and small amounts of K+.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7769543/

Salt

The total quantity of salt included in the typical US diet amounts to 9.6 g/d (Table 1). About 75% of the daily salt intake in Western populations is derived from salt added to processed foods by manufacturers; 15% comes from discretionary sources (ie, cooking and table salt use), and the remainder (10%) occurs naturally in basic foodstuffs (50). Hence, 90% of the salt in the typical US diet comes from manufactured salt that is added to the food supply.

The systematic mining, manufacture, and transportation of salt have their origin in the Neolithic Period. The earliest salt use is argued to have taken place on Lake Yuncheng in the Northern Province of Shanxi, China, by 6000 BC (51). In Europe the earliest evidence of salt exploitation comes from salt mines at Cardona, Spain, dating to 6200–5600 BP (52). It is likely that Paleolithic (the old stone age which began 2.6 million years ago and ended 10000–12000 y ago) or Holocene (10000 y ago to the present) hunter-gatherers living in coastal areas may have dipped food in seawater or used dried seawater salt in a manner similar to nearly all Polynesian societies at the time of European contact (53). However, the inland living Maori of New Zealand lost the salt habit (53), and the most recently studied inland hunter-gatherers add no or little salt to their food on a daily basis (54). Furthermore, there is no evidence that Paleolithic people undertook salt extraction or took interest in inland salt deposits (55). Collectively, this evidence suggests that the high salt consumption (≈10 g/d) in Western societies has minimal or no evolutionary precedent in hominin species before the Neolithic period.”

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916523275462

I’m still at double the estimated ratio for Hunter Gatherers.
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This tendency for blood pressure to rise with age is seen mostly in western countries where sodium intakes are high.

Accelerated aging…?

This poison in the food supply is being reduced voluntarily right now by the food industry. The FDA isn’t giving guidance to 2300 mg/day yet because they think it is too fast for them.

AHA recommends no more than 1500 mg a day for optimal health.

What happens between 1500 mg and 500 mg a day, etc?

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Is salt accumulating in the body?

TED talk linked previously (2x speed).

635fig01

@AlexKChen much, much, worse than microplastics?

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/hypertensionaha.111.00566

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I think we have come to a conclusion on this forum that Chloride is an issue. The body tends to store quite a bit more sodium than potassium. Going by serum levels Soduim is in the 135-145 range and potassium in the 4-6 range (using micromoles per litre). I find my Chloride wanders around the 100 mark, but does not move far.

I don’t think it is as simple as Sodium bad potassium good.

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@John_Hemming, yes I definitely see your point sir. I suppose from that angle the main issue is that for practical purposes to avoid going overboard on chloride a person would still need to be mindful of added table salt and processed foods with added salt. IIUC the body generally tends to keep sodium, potassium and chloride all within a pretty tight range regardless of how much we are consuming. Fascinating

Some people go for Potassium Chloride and up to a point that might be helpful, but it obviously has its limits.

In any event I am supplementing with Sodium and Potassium Citrate (as well as Magnesium and Calcium).

This argument is so crazy, it reminds me of LDL cholesterol, the similarities are so spooky. Studies look at people’s salt intake last 5 yrs of their life or so, so the effect is barely there, while they’ve been on a suboptimal salt intake for 75 years… Compounded gains? Exponential? No wonder people are so confused if the relationship is like this.

If young people want to avoid HBP as they age, no added sodium diet seems like a very, very big upside. @adssx @Virilius

Controlling suboptimal BP with ‘the best drugs’, will be much easier if it’s much lower, and sodium has other effects than HBP.

“Aging does not increase blood pressure, it is the salt, salt years”

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My blood pressure measured as 122/69 this morning with a heart rate of 50 and a resting heart rate according to fitbit of 48. However, I supplement with sodium citrate (because I have to take something with the citrate and the limit on sodium is higher than potassium, magnesium and calcium - that i also supplement with.).

Hence I think the argument that if you supplement with sodium you will get hypertension is simplistic.

Someone found a paper which indicated that Sodium Chloride was an issue.

I don’t take any “drugs” for Lowering BP or statins, but I take a lot of things.

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It’s a pretty good argument that those groups of people that do not salt their food has the same BP as they had when they were a child their entire life, if you are 120/80 like me, means you have done damage to some processes in the body and it seems like it is the salted food.

(It is not possible to compare people within groups as everyone eats relatively high sodium).

Measuring your sodium intake and BP over a few weeks is like measuring LDL cholesterol and if you get a heart attack in few weeks, it doesn’t really make sense?

Low sodium diet is for preventing developing HBP, not from BP increasing (this doctor measured serum aldosterone).

It can’t be so simple that salt increases fluid retention → increase in blood pressure. It seems there is some other mechanism, and this is used as a ‘noble lie’, to make it easier to explain.

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The average arterial pressure is normally measured 1/3 of the pulse pressure up from diastolic. It happens that I have morning and night BP measurements going back since 2016 when I was properly hypertensive to now when I am not. A bp of 120/80 is an average arterial pressure of 97(ish). A bp of 122/69 is an average arterial pressure of 87(ish).

To be honest I would be happy with 120/80 (97), but I am happier with 122/69 (87).

Because I am an intermittent binge drinker my BP does go up and down a bit. When I am drunk my BP is often quite low and when I sober up it goes up a bit then settles down. I didn’t drink yesterday or Friday, but I did drink the day before.

I don’t actually like Sodium Chloride. I don’t like the taste and I have never added it to food although I will eat things with NaCl in it. On the other hand because I want the citrate I supplement with say at least 5 grams of sodium in a day (beyond what is in my diet, but not as Chloride).

Hence whereas I accept NaCl is to be avoided I am not worried about Na3C6H5O7.

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