A few points. Getting an enhanced response to an influenza vaccine is not equivalent to slowing aging, so I’d not use that dose and data for that purpose. It is a good indication that low dose Rapamycin can enhance T cell immunity.

I’d also not consider mouth sores to be an indication of too high of a dose. It is an adverse effect that is partially dose related, but usually resolves with time and isn’t a marker for mTORC1 inhibition.

The PEARL trial had dosing that wasn’t sufficient due to using a compounded form that would have had 25-30% of the absorption of the coated version. So can’t make any conclusions there - a significant wasted opportunity due to this factor.

I’d recommend a reading of this article from the great Dr. Blagosklonny.

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It may be that also the dose needed to have any effects (beneficial and collateral) increases? Maybe due to homeostatic reasons, like the cell creates more mTOR proteins to compensate for a sensed marked inhibition?
Something like this is known to happen in psychopharmacology, when neurotransmitter receptors are blocked by drugs, often the brain creates more to make up for the loss of signal, and this new setup requires more of the original drug to yield the same effect.

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I presume though that this dose is not weekly, but rather biweekly or monthly, so the strategy would be a very strong mTOR inhibition much less frequently…??

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@DrFraser, I listened to Joan Mannick twice, if I am right, her contention is that although that experiment was related specifically to an immune reaction, the immune system compenetrates all organs and governs a good part of their function and possibly their aging.
Also, I agree that mouth sores may be just a sign of a local effect, not a systemic effect. I remember Matt Kaberlein addressing this point, suggesting that fast-proliferating cells like those in the mucous membranes of the mouth and the digestive system might be influenced first (less proliferation to a system that need fast proliferation may compromise its optimal functioning).
So, if just a local effect, than they would not be representative of a local optimization.
But tolerating mouth sores need serious stoicism, Attia-like, if we want.
My knowledge about the PEARL trial is that they normalized the compounded dose to the dose of the coated version, so that males had the equivalent of about 3 mg of the coated version. This would be the point at which there were no side effects observed, hence the starting point to search a Minimum Effective Dose with Rapamycin proper. And of course, from that experiment, please correct me if I’m wrong, we cannot extrapolate anything to higher dosages. We just know that those dosages administered, rescaled to the coated version of the drug, did no harm, did no great good (except some light benefits to women).
Thanks for the link to Blagosklonny, I’m going to read it ASAP.

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@John_Hemming Do those twinges occur in your upper extremities like wrists and forearms? I have similar twinges there on the day after dosing.

Yes the PEARL trial of course showed nothing, except a homeopathic dose of rapamycin is neither helpful or hurtful.
I’ve seen no significant adverse effects in my patient population targeting a sirolimus level of >3 ng/mL for ~30% of the time. This can be done higher dose and less frequent than weekly - however done weekly this is usually accomplished in the 8-12 mg, sometimes higher and is body weight dependent primarily.
It is generally smart to start low and increase slowly - but that is if you buy into the hypothesis that levels matter. They certainly do when it is used traditionally.

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Yes about every 9 weeks

No i have tingles in my hands quite frequently linked to HIF 1 alpha i had some intestinal pain/twinge that may have been rapamycin

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Slightly unfair, but only slightly. Perhaps homeopathically unfair.

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Well, I do think the PEARL trial is useful in one respect, and that is safety at the dosages used. The high dose in men translated to coated version amounted to 3mg/week, at which point there were no real adverse effects, and mere hints at positive effects, at least directionally. But let us not forget that women on the higher dose did experience some minor benefits - whether that’s sex related or dose/body weight related we don’t know.

I therefore concluded that (for me) a starting dose of 3mg/week makes sense (based on the PEARL “do no harm” protocol), and then experimentally escalate, measuring rapa blood levels, but also importantly biomarkers and set criteria. To this end I have generated a table wherein I’ve been recording various effects prior to taking rapa, in the last 3 months or so, such like gum health (which I asked my periodontist to make an extensive and very exacting measurement and documentation to establish a baseline), I have a dermatology exam coming up, and I’ll get the same baseline record, augmented by my wife photographing my whole body skin, performing a gray hair count on my head, carefully monitoring, measuring (trackers) exercise performance and recovery effects, various aches, rashes, pimples, intestinal effects (random stomach cramps etc.), bathroom frequency and so on. Why? Because it is easy to forget that yes, I would get a pimple sometimes, or have this level of soreness, DOMS after exercise, these occasional gastrointestinal effects, and ascribe them later to rapa, good or bad. You have to have an exacting baseline to make reasonable comparisons and judge dose effects as you escalate. Have a record prior to the intervention so you have grounds for comparison.

Also, I believe dosages must be optimised for individuals. Mice in a given cohort don’t have, seems to me, as drastic individual body size differences as humans, and so you could use a single dose amount for all. But f.ex. dogs differ dramatically in size, so giving the same dose to a mastiff and a pug would be absurd. Hence, for dogs (and cats) they standardize per body weight (which the don’t bother for mice), I believe it was something like 0.15 per kg. I believe the same must happen for humans. I find it absurd when studies just use one dose for all - and perhaps that might account for some of the sex differences in human reaction to rapa. In humans, size matters :slight_smile:

Start (s)low, but not too low (see the posts where an mtorc researcher claimed a too low dose actually activates mtorc1), and escalate from there, slowly, while carefully monitoring and measuring effects against a baseline.

For me, I’ll start with 3mg/week for 4 weeks, and go up 1mg every 4 weeks till I hit 6mg/week, stay there for a few months to see if there are any longer term effects that emerge, and then move up slowly to 8-10mg/week and see what that does for me. Right now I’m waiting for the rapa to arrive from India (with empa, pita, telmi), stuck at customs. But I won’t start until all my baseline measurements have been completed, blood panels, DEXA, CIMT etc. Then I’ll first do all my initial interventions, change statin, stabilize blood glucose, blood pressure, gets the rest of my vaccinations. And then finally it’s off to the races, and measure, measure, measure. That’s my plan, FWIW - critiques and feedback welcome!

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We knew that. Brad stanfields trial is similarly useless sadly.

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I think this is so highly variable (by person and environment) that its not a good guide. I, for example, had a mouth sore around week 10 when I got to 6mg/week. I continued at that dose of 6mg/week for a month or two after that and never had a mouth sore again. Later I explored doses as high as 28mg/week (effective, via GFJ), and never had a mouth sore again. So I really don’t know what you can tell from mouth sores and their frequency. As long as they aren’t too frequent I don’t think you can read too much into their periodic occurrence.

I have heard of others who randomly get these mouth sores called apthous ulcers, sometimes caused by other things. For example Peter attia:

You may remember a video I posted some months back about the debilitating aphthous (mouth) ulcers I sometimes get, and explained what I use to mediate my discomfort while they heal. Except, one time the pain was so bad that my wife went to look for alternative options. What I normally used wasn’t cutting it. We found that an ingredient in the toothpaste I was using at the time was a contributing factor to my more-than-uncomfortable experience: sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS), which is used as a surfactant, or foaming agent. It can also be a mouth and gum irritant. It turns out there are a lot of added ingredients in toothpaste that may not actually clean our teeth and gums, but do provide experiential aspects we are habituated to have—things that we equate to feeling clean.

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By the way, do we have a statistics of the multiplying factor GFJ generates. I think you cited something in the region of 2.5X to 3X, is that based on blood concentrations, and on how many measurements?

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Yes - see this thread: Improve Bioavailability of Rapamycin (2)

Its from our FAQ, which I recommend you review if you haven’t yet: Rapamycin Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

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FWIW: I just had an order come in fron india that took 12 days total from when it was put in the post there to my mailbox. the last order about 5 months or so ago it was stuck in customs for almost a month before they sent it on. (although it didn’t appear to have been opened.)

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how often do you dose? I started 5mg +GFJ every 10 days and will be taking my 4th dose today. No noticable effects so far except a few pimples/small neck boils at my hairline but i have had them on and off my whole life so I don’t think they are necessarily from rapa. and my glucose has gone up a bit. I’m usually around 96 or so but now around 106ish. I need to do some fasting tests.

I dose every week at 4 mg + GFJ.

I agree that it’s good to keep these parameters (glucose, lipids and mouth sores) in mind when figuring out a good dose to take. Just keep in mind that these are only a rough proxy for mTORC2 activation. I’m pretty sure people can have too much mTORC2 activation without necessarily having any of these side effects and they can have almost no mTORC2 activation while having some of these side effects. Whether you get mouth sores probably depends even more on how sensitive your mucus membranes are to rapamycin and mTORC2 inhibition and to other things involved in mouth sore regulation. There are people that get mouth sores from a single 1 mg dose, and I strongly doubt they are getting anything close to effective doses in lots of tissues in the body. There are also people that can tolerate very large doses without ever getting the mouth sores, doses that are probably increasing mTORC2 too much. The same can be said about glucose and blood lipids. Whether a person experiences changes in them in response to rapamycin may just depend on sensitivity of the liver in particular to rapamycin or on various other things.

Optimally I would combine side effect monitoring with blood levels of rapamycin to determine a good dose. Both are useful.

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I agree, my personal issue is that I wouldn’t be able to monitor blood concentrations of rapamycin, being compelled as it were to sail in the dark. I would have to take advantage of previous knowledge on dosages and individual responses as desctibed.

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Here’s the source: Top 5 - Which Currently Available Longevity Interventions Do You Think Are the Best - #201 by Jonas

So your reasoning and strategy make a lot of sense: we know that about 3 mg/week is safe and identical to placebo in men (PEARL trial); therefore, it’s a good starting dose.

Good point. In the PEARL study, they note:

Participants received placebo, 5mg or 10mg compounded rapamycin (equivalent to 1.43mg or 2.86mg of generic formulations) weekly.

Supplementary Table S2 gives the average weight for each group:

  • “10mg” (so 2.86mg of generic sirolimus):
    • Female: 65.81 kg => 0.04 mg/kg (of generic sirolimus)
    • Male: 84.06 kg => 0.03 mg/kg
  • “5mg” (so 1.43mg of generic sirolimus):
    • Female: 62.65 kg => 0.02 mg/kg
    • Male: 84.17 kg => 0.02 mg/kg
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