#21

Point well taken!

Is vegan an extreme diet? I suppose you might mean if one is not having a bite of salmon because they think it will kill them, then that would seem extreme, if that is what you mean?

I am vegan for the animals and am 100% biased because my preference is related to ethics. I simply think it’s unconscionable to treat animals as we do. So, I’d be vegan even if it wasn’t one of the healthiest diets or better for the planet.

Some may disagree on it being a very healthy diet or better for the planet, but I just haven’t seen anything convincing to the contrary. Having said all that, in no way am I saying one can’t be healthy on a non vegan diet, and I also realize you can eat Oreos all day and be vegan.

I get why ethical based vegans are biased, but unless one’s livelihood is based on maintaining the status quo of the meat industry, I’ve never fully understood why the typical omnivore takes a vegan diet so personally (many have visceral reactions as if you are saying I’m coming for your guns).

Fwiw, I have not seen that in anyone here.

I’ve wondered if it’s because there is an ethical component to justify even if it’s not a conscious act? I share this out loud incase anyone has a thought on this. Otherwise, I just don’t know why everyone gets so tribal on this topic.

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#22

I think you answered your own question. When people are contemplating an act laden with moral weight they feel it differently. Diet is such a core part of human culture; I think it hits that in-group / out-group place in the human brain.

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#23

Did you read the conclusion the study reached?
“Dietary protein intake, especially plant protein, in midlife, is associated with higher odds of healthy aging and with several domains of positive health status in a large cohort of female nurses.’
I guess if you are a female nurse that might be beneficial. What about the male nurses”

They use the words “associate and associated” way too much.
“associated” 54 times.
I doubt that this study has much scientific credibility.

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#24

So you are telling me that I should become a female nurse and move to Okinawa to maximize my longevity?

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#25

I think Walter Willett was involved and he is a serious scientist at Harvard. Epidemiology is the best we will ever do with examining dietary patterns as you cannot do a randomized trial in humans on this.

The data from multiple sources all keeps coming back the same, and is consistent.

I’d be reluctant to think it incorrect.

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#26

“The claim that certain plant foods are “missing” specific amino acids is demonstrably false. All plant foods contain all 20 amino acids, including the 9 indispensable amino acids”

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#27

I am not trying to convince anyone to change their diet. We all come from different backgrounds and have different tastes.

Since I am old I have tried different diets starting with vegetarian recipes from Adele Davis and others. Sorry, I did not like vegetarian diets. I tried Atkins and Keto, but they also were too limiting for my tastes.

The bottom line is I was never very fond of vegetables. Maybe it’s because I have a Northern European heritage and was raised in a “meat and potatoes” family.

My typical evening meal is meat with two vegetables. In the mornings I drink protein shakes and eat some nuts. Occasionally I eat steak and eggs for my first meal.
My main goal is to avoid sarcopenia and frailty. It’s working pretty well so far.

Back to the study you reference:
Much of the evidence relies on self-reporting. And, the benefit of a vegetarian or vegan diet, meager though it is, applies mainly to children and younger adults.
The study also mainly makes the point that a vegetarian or vegan diet supplies enough protein. “There is no evidence of any adverse physiological effects of the modestly lower protein intake seen in adults consuming vegetarian diets.”
“In older people, it could be argued that some vegetarian diets might supply insufficient protein to ensure a long-term nitrogen balance and that some vegetarian meals may provide insufficient protein and leucine to favor postprandial anabolism”

So, again I am not trying to suggest that anyone change their diet. If the vegetarian diets are better they are only modestly better. I would sooner die a little earlier than switch to vegetarian…

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#28

@Beth my biased opinion is that extreme diets include excluding whole macros (extreme low fat or low protein or low carb), excluding entire food food categories (vegan, carnivore), and/ or eating one meal a day or less on average.

I believe those diets can be useful for solving gut problems (elimination diets) or losing weight but they require being super careful to avoid deficiencies. Perhaps some people like extreme ways of eating or have medical issues that force them into one of these diets, or have a religious or ethical drive to stick to one of these diets. So be it. Otherwise I think people should transition out of elimination diets after a while.

I have done keto. I loved it. But it cost me power so I quit. And I never dared to test my apoB while I was doing it. I have done IM fasting but now I think protein at breakfast is important. I would still use IM for calorie control if I could skip dinner but I can’t do it (so far).

I have accepted the idea that gut health/ a healthy microbiome is a key aspect of good health. And the only way (my bias) to get this is through plants. I have come to like eating plants. And I add several spices (plants) to my dinners most nights. I eat 30 plants a week.

I also love fish. I eat fish (salmon, tuna mostly) every day. I also love Greek yogurt (low fat and non fat mostly). I want to eat as little protein as I need but I’ll err on the too much side. My bias is I need a lot to support my physical recovery from exercise. Maybe I’m wrong. I do cut back on protein and calories between resistance workouts, and around rapa dosing.

I also think diversity is critical to avoid food sensitivities and immune issues. This is my biggest weakness as I tend to eat the same things. Still 30 plants is 30 plants.

I do a 24 fast every week for body composition management. I also think it’s useful to give my digestion a rest.

So I do a little bit of extremeness but not as much as some. Anyway, those are my biases.

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#29

I mean humans are omnivore for a reason. While I do agree we probably eat more meat than we need, one very simple observation I see is that most vegan I observed have issues with their teeth even young ones. I’m thankful that I’ve all my teeth without having to resort to any major dental work. Another observation I noticed is that people with lots of teeth issues seems to be close to the end of their life. By that I don’t mean accidents. I don’t have any prove other than personal observation. Does anyone notice the same or different? In all honesty I wish more people are vegan so the price of meat won’t be so high :joy:.

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#30

You wrote: I mean humans are omnivore for a reason.

Yes, because we’re opportunist in diet, because we need huge amounts of energy for our larger brains and thinking capacities; hence, we can digest almost anything as food… as long as it is in moderation.

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#31

I mean we even consume food from the nightshade family lol. I love the variety of food even if I have been told they’re not suitable. Who likes fugu sashimi? Definitely not for those who wants to live forever.

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#32

I haven’t heard this about teeth and haven’t noticed anything in the other vegan/vegetarians I know.

I’m not saying it’s not a thing but just that I’m hearing this theory for the first time.

I’ve been vegetarian since I was 25 and the only dental work I’ve had done since was 2-4 silver fillings replaced (fillings from childhood), and I’ve have had 1 cavity (only because I spent a year having chocolate edible before bed and sometimes it was after i brushed). I haven’t had any crowns or root canals. I have all my wisdom teeth. I even have a baby tooth that I’ve been told was going to crack for the last 20 years, but here we are.

I’m just one person but there ya go.

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#33

That is good to know. I noticed all my older friends who started to lose their teeth over 60 years all passed away within a year or 2.

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#34

People can argue and bicker all they want. The evidence as it is speaks for itself.
Let’s stick to scientific studies in this thread.

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#35
#36

Well, I’m not 60 yet, so I’ll keep you posted :slight_smile:

All I know, which is not much, is both my parents had horrible teeth at a young age and were wearing dentures for as long as I can remember. They said it was simply because ‘back in the day’ people (at least in their families) weren’t taking as good of care with their teeth

Unrelated but related kinda sorta….
I was always told cats on a raw diet will have excellent teeth. All five of my cats had a 100% raw diet for well over a decade, and all five had awful teeth… falling out etc. I think the vet dentist sent all her kids to college from my cats alone.

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#37

N=1
Unlike most of my elderly friends, at 83, I still have most of my original teeth.
I attribute it to brushing my teeth several times a day, not diet.
I would have all of my teeth (other than my rear molars) except for the propensity of the U.S. Navy during the Vietnam era to pull a tooth rather than fix it because it was quicker.

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#38

My cat is 18 years old and never had issues with her teeth. She is still as naughty as the first day I got her (subjective). She almost never eat dry food. I alternative between wet food and raw food.

#39

It is not something I’ll ask people if they brushed their teeth. I am sure I brush mine but I don’t brush them very long. Maybe my electric tooth brush is good :joy:. One of the person is my father. I’m certain he brushed his teeth very well but he was a kidney transplant recipient. That may be a big reason for his untimely death. I would beg to think differently.

#40

Curious if your raw had bones?

I didn’t use bones to have lower phosphorus and less chance of choking, but apparently that would have helped with their teeth? Mine was homemade raw without bones (eggshell for calcium)

And this shows us just how genetics matter!

I now give more canned than raw because multiple cats have kidney disease and I’ve needed to lower protein and phosphorus…