#62

I think you’ve got it wrong. As someone whose father was the director of the Adventist Health Study from 1977 until last year … and who worked as a medical statistician and programmer on that study … I know just a little about this. University, Med School, 4 board certifications … studying like mad for 30+ years post undergraduate. I suspect my perspective might be informed.

You are quite correct … processed vegan or vegetarian stuff … rubbish … and ends up meeting some ethical or religious goal, but if you are purely looking at health … somewhat better than animal based.

The researchers who witness health outcomes vs. lifestyle choices, such as Walter Willett, Christopher Gardner, Valter Longo and my father seem to have a consistent message on dietary pattern - and it doesn’t have to be WFPB - but the closer it gets to that pattern the better the health outcomes - to an extent. Adding limited, high quality animal sourced foods is probably fine … but having a dietary pattern where these foods are usually the majority of intake has nothing but poor outcome data in the long term. There are always individual variances - but Keto done primarily with animal products is not a good longevity plan in general.

However WFPB, or WFPB plus a little fish and a little fermented dairy will, based on decent evidence, rather than idiots pontificating on why they think Keto is best (with no outcome data), demonstrates a decade of increased longevity vs. the standard American diet.

I’m not an ignoramus on the benefits of keto for a very small number of people - but this generally isn’t health outcome based, it is seizures, mental health … sometimes weight (but health outcomes would be better with a better diet and if not able to pull this off with dietary and lifestyle advice, I’ll recommend a GLP-1/GIP … much more sensible if looking at longevity).

Ancestry and history arguments are silly. There was no selection to yield longevity - if your only goal is to get to reproductive age … sure there is selection for that. If you are interested in longevity … just keep pushing that IGF-1 through the roof and promote malignancy, escalate your vascular disease and risk of T2DM with animal protein … that is what a typical keto diet promotes, and will take years off your life.

BTW - I agree with you on the appearance of many of the folks trying to hack their longevity … I think it will end badly for them … they don’t look well. I’m WFPB … and I look well … I’m also not delusional and anticipate life extension with good choices and all my various drugs to possibly be 20 years if I’m lucky.

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#63

What about “high meat”?

@Bicep your favorite Dr. Boz.

It’s weird, because I physically am almost puking watching this, is there an ancestral or historical, selection for this? Why do they eat “high meat”?

It’s called “high meat” since people “get a sense of euphoria” according to Dr. Boz, but I would think probably the same reason why someone might get euphoria speeding in traffic 120 mph, of course this is lost on them because they don’t know how to think or cannot think in alternate ways.

Dr. Boz believes insulin resistance is much, much more important than lipids and lp(a) for heart disease.

Since we were on the topic of raw meat…

#64

I like what I’ve seen of her, she doesn’t appear to be owned by anybody. I like people that use their own brain.

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#65

If this is Walter Willet and the Nurses Health Study I am in that and those food questionaires are hard to accurately do. I wouldn’t put too much faith in anything where folks are supposed to report how many raisins they ate in a year and such. I do my best but….

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#66

You’d have to take a careful look at the validation done - and once that is fully explored, I think the degree of skepticism would be a lot less. On the surface it can seem like a lot of error can occur - but looking deeper, it is a serious scientific endeavor and the error is manageable.
We don’t have an alternative, as humans will not be randomized to a diet for life. The issue also is, one cohort after another, all measured slightly differently … all with similar conclusions.

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#67

The new Eric Topal article has some good summaries of food impact (and lifestyle choices) on different organs aging profile. The key seems to be to avoid processed meats (sausages, chicken nuggets, etc.), and animal fats.

See here: Teal Proteomics 2024 launch - Organ Specific Biological Clock - #9 by RapAdmin

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#68

I hope you’re right as I always feel my answers might not be that accurate but then there are some, eg how many soft drinks did you have, that I can answer with certainty. I totally agree with what you say re diet, that WFPB is best but some lean animal protein here and there won’t hurt. I see too many healthy folks on WFPB - listening to the Food Revolution Networks yearly talks with a weeks worth of plant based folks, scientists, cardiologists etc - they’ve convinced me.

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#69

Near where I work in the ER in Nashville, they plan an In and Out Burger in the next 6 months. Back when I was a carnivore and lived in California … those burgers were good. I’m threatening to break bad once when they open. My weak system however will possibly fail and Ill go into shock and end up in the ER ….

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#70

People claiming that observational studies in humans are science are deluded.
These are rubbish.
It’s impossible to get a good scientific experiment on humans for diet. Even the drug studies are often poorly designed and analyzed and those are the best we have.

#71

Some of these “essential” (not produced by the body) amino acids are methionine and isoleucine*. From the naming of such amino acids as “essential” and commentary around it you’d think you need it and it is good for your longevity to consume them.

Yet their restriction has shown lifespan extension across several species up to mice and rats - and rapamycin-level effect size.

Notably plant based proteins are generally lower in these. This could be one of the reasons for health benefits of plant based diets.

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#72

You are arguing semantics.
They are still valuable if you cannot run a scientific experiment, or not, you don’t have to use observational studies in your decision making if you don’t want to

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#73

Agree for some.

I think for me, high protein and all the amino acids is working.

Testing constantly, my physician says all great… little room for improvement… a bit higher Vitamin D… he wants high normal… I am mid- normal. Lol. Tweaking the small stuff… already normal.

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#74

no, no they are not valuable - the experimental design is too flawed and biased to provide meaningful data to base your decision on. In addition, most of these so called scientists manipulate data to provide results congruent with their biases. No matter if you are a vegan, carnivore or something else, basing your decision on flawed studies is worse than useless.
I taught experimental design and statistical analysis for 40 years - you can believe what you want, but I know they are nonsense

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#75

so making hard claims from epidemiology…

i wouldn’t put much weight into those outcomes…

All they did was fill out some silly surveys, right?

meh.

#76

I like this analysis of the recent epidemiological study claiming that plant protein is superior to animal protein. Even though Layne is a pro-protein guy, I think he does good job of objectively walking through the study results and analysis. This is a very emotional topic so I’d like to disclose my biases: I eat a ton of vegetables but most of protein come lean animal sources fish, seafood, meat, and dairy. I don’t eat many complex carbs (although I believe for many people they are fine) and keep my calories low.
Before my current diet, I spent 4 years as a vegan and 12 years as a vegetarian, so I don’t think I can be accused of being “anti plant based.”

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#77

The human being has been eating fat and animal meat for more than a million years; it makes sense that the best diet for humans is a lot of fat and a lot of meat.

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#78

Simon Hill pretty thoroughly destroys Layne’s analysis of the study in the following video. I actually lost a lot of respect for Layne after this and even unsubscribed from his channel.

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#79

Its took me about 2 years to evolve into a strict low fat vegan diet. I’m very analytic and don’t do things without study and experimenting to judge any effects I can discern. What finally put me on this course was listening to “The China Study” audiobook while hiking across the Grand Canyon this past May. The book really convinced me (with the caveat that I am 69 yrs old and think this is an appropriate diet for my age - I could see feeling differently at age 35). Strongly recommend reading, the evidence presented is very strong. https://www.audiobooks.com/audiobook/china-study-revised-and-expanded-edition-the-most-comprehensive-study-of-nutrition-ever-conducted-and-the-startling-implications-for-diet-weight-loss-and-long-term-health/280835

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#80

Someone in Layne’s comments on insta asked if there are good vegan protein powders because they were told to stop consuming whey by their doc. Layne only snapped back there is no reason to give up whey. I know he feels you can get quality protein from some plant based protein powders, I’ve heard him say as much, but the person on the receiving end of that comment doesn’t know that.

Even though I like Layne, he has also taught me to take everything he says with a grain of salt because he gets very defensive at the idea of not eating meat and might leave out some good guidance if you don’t want to.

And on that note,
I use pea protein powder. Does anyone use potato?
Open to using the best plant based protein powder if anyone has anything to share.

And on that note, he kept comparing whey to wheat protein… well, if talking about whey, why not compare it to pea if you want to be more realistic

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#81

Then again, they all died from typical causes.