#452

I’ve been wondering about this since I found out about the mistranslation and a much smaller dose of Epitalon being required than most “experts” have said previously. Do you happen to have a link or source where I could read more about this with Thymalin?

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#453

Not a source, but here’s the cheat sheet info for Thymulin (which some call Thymalin, essentially animal derived vs synthetic).

Thymalin/Thimogen Longevity, Immune system • Treatment of immune disorders

• An anti-aging agent

• Improves respiratory and cardiovascular health

• Enhanced anti-inflammatory properties

• Potential anti-tumor activity Treatment length: no longer if 10 days if taken daily, no longer than 10 weeks if taken weekly. Preferably no more than 100 mg in a cycle. Can do two cycles a year.

Note: Thymalin is an extract of Thymogen. 10 mg of Thymalin = 100 mcg of Thymogen.

30 min before Thymalin take 30 mg of zinc

IM (some do SQ):

• For treating immune disorders: 5-20 mg daily for 3-10 days (manufacturer’s instructions)

• For anti-aging effects: 2-5 mg daily (World of Peptides)

• For anti-aging effects: 5-10 mg daily (manufacturer’s instructions, Jay Campbell)

• For anti-aging effects:10 mg once or twice a week (Reddit)

Thymalin is often stacked with Epithalon:

IM (some do SQ):

• 5 mg thymalin and 5 mg epithalamin daily for 20 days, repeating every 6 months (Jay Campbell) Epitalon (Epithalon, Epithalamin) LINK

• Thymalin is an extract of Thymogen and is more concentrated, so need to take 100 mcg of Thymogen instead of 10 mg Thymalin

• Similar to Epithalamin vs Epitalon

#454

They’re both from Dr. Vladimir Khavinson’s development which was commonly animal derived peptides which seem only available from Russia. The dosing variation has to do with some mistranslation.

I tried 200mcg Epitalon and didn’t get anything measurable from it. Maybe I’ve got longer telomeres but I’m not testing them. Not a protocol I would repeat.

#455

The 10 mg epithalamin was done intramuscularly. If epithalon is done subcutaneously with its lower bioavailability, I think a 100:1 exact translation may be incorrect and that a (considerably) higher dose than 100 mcg subQ epithalon is warranted.

Do you remember how long it took for you to get the sleep effect after initiating epithalon?

#456

About two weeks. I don’t think it has a strong effect. I was sleeping well before I started epitalon, but I definitely think it improves sleep quality in the sense of more restful sleep.

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#457

I’ve heard others report improved sleep at higher doses, but I’m not aware of any research or studies supporting this. And certainly nothing about the good or bad consequences of taking these higher doses or prolonged (longer than 20 days) dosing.

#458

Reading what I can find on peptide sites, I see a few reports of adaptation to continuous use of epithalon with sleep effects vanishing. That is also the conclusion of a person who is monitoring peptide use amongst her clients. The recommendation, that I also got from peptide mentor Nat Niddam, is to do 10-day cycles. Ranging between maximally once per month to every six months.

If adaptatation to sleep effects occur with continuous use, perhaps hindrance to the anti-aging effect could also occur and since that is the reason for me taking epithalon I don´t want to risk this.

Frustrating, since I slept like a baby on epithalon. Eight days after ending the cycle, the effect vanished.

(There is the lone peptide mentor advocating continuous daily use of epithalon for sleep, dr Heather Smith-Fernandez. She wrote me saying she could not give any medical advice wtih a consultation outside her geographic area of license. If she stlll advocates continuous use, I would not bet on her being correct)

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#459

She banned me from her chat group on FB :slight_smile:

The leadership of that group is not really interested in hearing scientifically backed opinions :slight_smile: and they support a lot of woooo :slight_smile:

So I’d take anything from the leadership of that group with a grain of salt. There are some good members there but most toe the line and don’t rock the boat.

I will continue to read as many studies as I can find (I read studies 2 to 3 hours a night) and avoid the opinions of influencers as I’ve always done. On top of that I take action and actually do what I find in the studies and then measure my results as best I can.

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#460

I am taking Epitalon for slowing telomere shortening and possible telomere lengthening.
Do we see any real evidence of that in humans?

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#461

What a bummer hearing that about her. I took notice because what she said corroborated with a few - just three - anecdotal reports from users of epitalon losing its sleep effects after longer periods of injections (in the most specific case not continuous but after a few 3-4 week cycles).plus with what another influencer, Faye Danaway, says has observed amongst clients of hers.

I look forward to hearing your conclusions after your studies. If you find one on continuous use please share it. I am all ears if you find continuous use not being risky - I loved sleeping like a baby!

#462

PS dr Heather, proponent of continuous use of epithalon, did not provide any rationale for this on a video interview, other than that she loves epithalon and peptides. When asked for the dose, she did not know it - she only knew the mark on the insulin syringe. The dose, which proved to be 1 mg, had to be dug up later.

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#463

Our NMN use (800mg daily) has been pretty steady state for nearly 2 years now. With that in mind, theoretically it’s now part of our baseline. We’ve seen our Telos increase in length the previous 2 tests.

I did a 3 week Epithalon cycle in Sept, was kind of expecting to see a increase, maybe? but nope, not for me.

Joan did not do this Epithalon cycle, I’m her test subject so I always go first on anything new. So no Epithalon previous to this test.

I would say that something else affected this result.

My latest test the end of Sept indicates I lost some Telo length, -0.12. This is 9 months after my previous test, Feb 2024

Steve_M_5-tests_Telomeretimelinegraph

Joan experienced a slightly larger reduction in Telo length -0.19. So maybe Epithalon helped me?? who knows for sure.

Joan_M_Telomeretimelinegraph

We are both on the 150mcg night time dose, 5 nights a week. We’ll see what this looks like in 8 months

#464

Sorry, I don’t know where I read it, but I read that you have to take Epitalon for a long period of time before it has any effect on telomere lengthening.
Maybe I saw it while reading one of the Khavinson papers.

#465

What I’m most curious about is there we were on a pretty clear upward trend in telo length and then it stopped and for Joan went a bit lower than 3 years ago and mine a bit higher than 3 years ago. Not sure what did that.

We’ll see if the Epithalon will improve that with nine months of using this peptide 5 nights a week at 150mcg per dose.

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#466

You are doing a pioneering effort, Steve It will be most interesting to follow you on the teleomeres , long-term sleep and other effects. I wish you alll the best.

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#467

I am taking Epithalon based on the longevity studies by Khavinson et al, not for the possible telomere lengthening. I recall one discussion / opinion stating that the dramatic longevity effects from those studies may not have had anything to do with telomere lengthening.

My understanding is that the role of telomeres in aging is unclear. In many, but by no means all, studies, telomere length is not a better prediction of mortality or functional decline than chronological age.

I recall one study claiming 4% of the aging effect is caused by shortened telomeres, which is not insignificant.

What I recall from Epithalon lengthening telomeres is mainly preclinical. Here is the only study I have seen on humans, for a single person, showing lengthening. Three other interventiones were done at the same time but it was thought that Epithalon contributed to the lengthening.

Improving Biological Age, Telomere Length, and Cognition: A Case Report on the Use of Therapeutic Plasma Exchange, Peptides, Umbilical Cord Tissue Mesenchymal Stem Cells and Exosomes in a Patient with Cognitive Decline

Authors: Lee, Edwin; Burns, Morgan

Source: Journal of Restorative Medicine, Volume 14, Number 1

#468

I think the issue here is that telemorase also improves mitochondria.

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#469

Like you, we do not take it for telomere lengthening…

Same for NMN, we do not take it for telomere lengthening, but we can measure telomeres which are a proxy for a functioning telomerase system. So that is my concern now, why is my telomerase system out of whack?

Since I can’t measure my longevity until I die, I look for other possible/measurable effects to see if it’s “working”. Waiting until I die is not an option for measuring effects today :slight_smile:

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#470

Suspecting that there could be shortcomings in telomere testing, I tested my telomere length at two reputable places just a month apart. The difference between the two in my calculated biological age was eighteen years…

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#471

Was there a difference in the kb lengths?
Did they test on the same cell type?
Did they use the same sampling method?
Etc…
I don’t go by the “age” with that test. That is not what I’m interested in re-telo length.

The only way to establish a trend, regardless of abs numbers is to use the same test from the same company every time One of my mantras is about absolute numbers vs trends, especially with what I’d call non-standard tests like this one.

This is one reason I like the Rejuvenation Olympics;
Same test
Same company
Not easily “fudgeable”
Even playing field