#34

Omega Plus doesn’t give the EPA vs DHA breakdown (% in whole blood): https://omegaquant.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/OmegaQuant_O3plus_v15Dec2020.pdf

Only “Omega-3 Index Complete Test” gives that: https://omegaquant.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/OmegaQuant_O3complete_v15Dec2020.pdf (page 4)

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#35

What happens if you eat a tin of sardines or some salmon? Still feelings of depression?

#36

I’ve never noticed anything like that. But I haven’t properly tested either…

#37

Skip the supplements and eat the real food.
I eat either a tin of sardines or some salmon every day except my Rapa day where I try to be as low as possible on protein consumption.

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#38

@RPS have you measured your omega index for see the effect? I prefer a food approach if that would work.

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#39

I dug more on this topic. I couldn’t find any confirmation that omega 3 can cause depression in some individuals, but there’s evidence that only supplements with 100% EPA or EPA > 60% lower depressive symptoms:

Clinical impacts of n-3 fatty acids supplementation on depression symptoms: an umbrella review of meta-analyses 2023

n-3 PUFA (EPA, DHA and combination of these FA) supplementation has a significant improvement effect on depression indices in most studies. This result was more pronounced in major depressive disorder. There is a direct relationship between dose of n-3 PUFA and ES on depression. n-3 PUFA have not a superior effect on depression compared with anti-depressant drugs. However, EPA has more anti-depressive effects than DHA. In conclusion, n-3 PUFA supplementation could be considered as an effective therapeutic adjuvant approach in relieving depression symptoms.

Omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids in depression: insights from recent clinical trials 2023

Higher doses of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) (>1 g/day) improved measures of depression, particularly in MDD with elevated inflammation markers, comorbid cardiovascular diseases, late-life onset, and children and adolescent populations.

Efficacy of omega-3 PUFAs in depression: A meta-analysis 2019

The meta-analysis showed an overall beneficial effect of omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids on depression symptoms (SMD = −0.28, P = 0.004). Compared with placebo, EPA-pure (=100% EPA) and EPA-major formulations (≥60% EPA) demonstrated clinical benefits with an EPA dosage ≤1 g/d (SMD = −0.50, P = 0.003, and SMD = −1.03, P = 0.03, respectively), whereas DHA-pure and DHA-major formulations did not exhibit such benefits.

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Predicting Alzheimers & Dementia (and minimizing risk)
#40

A shot in the dark but in order to utilise correctly Omega 3 in the brain it is thought you need a good Vitamin B status: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916523277655

Have you tested your vitamins?

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#41

Thanks. My B vitamin levels are good + this paper might be incorrect (see: What Are the best Neuroprotective Agents and Why? - #29 by adssx ).

#42

@约瑟夫_拉维尔 maybe I should check but haven’t done so.
Honestly, if my body can’t absorb omega 3’s from the fish then I doubt very much that it could absorb them from the fish oil capsules.
I’m sticking with the sardines and salmon especially as I love the taste of both of them!! ( lucky me as I know many people don’t e.g. my son).

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#43

@RPS I’d think of it like Vit D….if you are a poor absorber, get more however you have to to get enough.

Sardines. About 8 years ago I saw sardines at Costco and I thought “why not”. I bought 5 tins.

I got home and ate a tin of sardines. And then I sat still for a few minutes while I tried not to vomit. Then I threw out the rest of the sardines.

I wonder if I’m ready for sardines now?

I want to like sardines. How does a person learn to like sardines?

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#44

I’m afraid you either like them or you don’t, lol. Certain tastes are learnable, like bitter tastes are frequently disliked by kids and teens, but you learn to like them as an adult. That’s what happened to me, as a kid I hated olives, coffee and certain vegetables, now I love them. Spices are another.

But other tastes don’t seem to be learnable, meaning going from not liking to liking. I think fish is one of those. Often textures are hard to go from hating to liking… I never learned to like eggplant, and I tried many times, same with certain seafood calamari, mussels, fish. If you’re introduced to those you either like them or you don’t.

Also depends on the person. Some are naturally adventurous culinarily, others are definitely not. There’s no rhyme or reason.

You could try to combine sardines with something else, sometimes you can change the context and adapt by modifying the texture and changing the taste, by say, adding sardines on a sandwich with cucumbers and tomatoes. Or try different sardines, in olive oil, not water, or smoked etc. You should dig those cans out of the trash and experiment with different flavor combinations. But in the end you may just not like sardines, it happens and that’s fine, ss the saying goes, there’s plenty of other fish in the ocean😋

#45

Sorry Joseph, can’t help you there. I was fed sardines as a kid and have always liked them.
(Have to be a bit careful though - I started eating 2 tins a day and my uric acid started going up too high. 1 can a day is the sweet spot for me. ).

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#46

It’s rare to find negative reports on the use of fish oils (other than from Brian Peskin the PEO guy), so I thought I should mention mine. Over the years I have tried fish oils 4 times, trying to source the best of the best out of concerns for rancidity and mercury. Each time I was fine for about 3 days before getting hit with severe fatigue, unable to function and on the couch.

I never thought of it as depression as there did not seem to be any mental/emotional component other than the fear that it might not go away. Stopping the fish oil always resolved the fatigue within 24 to 36 hours. I’ve never been able to find a mechanism of action for this effect. Glad it’s being discussed!

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#47

Yes, I don’t know if depression is the best word to describe this, but for me, it’s the same: lethargic and doing nothing. Also resolved after 24–48 hours. I ordered EPA only. I’ll see if it’s better.

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#48

For close to two decades, I’ve been consuming one tablespoon of ground flaxseeds 5 times a week. I’ve also been a once/week salmon/sardine consumer. Then about a year ago, I started supplementing with small amounts of EPA, and smaller yet of DHA. Stupidly, I never got my omega-3 index checked before supplementing with the EPA/DHA, which I now regret greatly. I do intend to check it some time not too long from now.

I started with the EPA/DHA because I was worried that I might not be getting enough of DHA:

But recently I came across this, and I’m somewhat conflicted:

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#49

Make sure you do the most expensive “Complete” test to get the EPA and DHA breakdown.

I would look at more recent papers. n=37 RCT from 2006…

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#50
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#51

@Digby9 @hamida_abdenour @Satchel @Davin8r: as you experienced kind of similar symptoms, do you know you APOE status? (related to this: Omega 3 for neuroprotection: EPA vs DHA? ) I’m E2/E4.

Also, this paper (High-dose eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) improves attention and vigilance in children and adolescents with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and low endogenous EPA levels 2019) concludes:

Interestingly, EPA group improved less than placebo group in impulsivity (commission errors), both overall and in youth with the highest baseline EPA levels, who also showed less improvement in other ADHD and emotional symptoms. […] In conclusion, EPA treatment improves cognitive symptoms in ADHD youth, especially if they have a low baseline endogenous EPA level, while youth with high EPA levels may be negatively affected by this treatment.

Could it be the same for DHA? If already high baseline then supplementing might be detrimental? It would explain the mixed results if you need to supplement based on your baseline + APOE4 status.

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#52

I’m negative for ApoE variants.

Omega-3 Fatty Acids 6.82%
Omega-3 Index 5.00%
Alpha-Linolenic (18:3n3) 2.16%
Eicosapentaenoic (EPA, 20:5n3) 0.64%
Docosapentaenoic-n3 (22:5n3) 1.43%
Docosahexaenoic (DHA, 22:6n3) 2.59%

Since this test (May of 2024, I’ve been supplementing with Carlson pure EPA, 1 gram 4 days/week for the past several months (less than 1g/day so that I don’t increase risk of afib). I’ll repeat the test soon.

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#53

I also have also experienced depression with omega (dha/epa), and tend to lean towards the choline vs adrenergic hypothesis that you posted about (@adssx) .
There might be more going on with other chemicals, neurotransmitters, signaling stuff etc.
As I have also taken choline bitartrate (w/inositol 250mg each) before and had a similar feeling as I did with epa/dha oil.
Felt like it was inhibiting or lowering some good feeling chemical(s).

Some of the other choline products seem to have good reviews such as citicoline or alpha gpc.
Some brands have products that stack a choline precursor product with L-dopa(or tyrosine) and acetyl-l-carnitine.
So it appears they want to boost choline with dopamine and noradrenaline.
Kind of like activating both the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system.
Some of those choline precursor products might be doing a few different things besides targeting choline.

Those were interesting posts you had with Dr Alo vs Dr Lipid on twitter in regards to heart disease.
Too much omega 3, and my blood get’s too thin and it takes much longer to heal from cuts.

In regards to neuroprotection, fish oil might be boosting choline as acetylcholinesterase inhibitor medicines are used for anti-dementia. Maybe it’s doing something else.

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