#311

A little off topic but I like taking a 1mg sublingual tab before bed. Then I take another one when I wake up to use the bathroom in the middle of the night to fall back asleep.

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#312

I think that’s the method recommended by John. I’ve just started doing it as well.

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#313

This is wonderful and a real accomplishment imo! Thank you

#314

This week I also just started using the sublingual upon wakening in the middle of the night, in addition to my SR before bed. It seems to be working well!!!

Quick question… my concern is having something dissolve in my mouth after brushing my teeth. Do we know if this could contribute to tooth decay or plaque? I was wondering if I should just swallow it

(I think of this because I gave myself my only cavity in 40 years during my chocolate edible phase!)

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#315

I dont know. I find melatonin reduces gingivitis when sucked. Because i take so much melatonin now i dont know what would happen to my gums were i to stop, but i dont want the risk of additional mtDNA damage so i stick with the program.

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#316

Optimizing the Time and Dose of Melatonin as a Sleep-Promoting Drug: A Systematic Review of Randomized Controlled Trials and Dose−Response Meta-Analysis 2024

Dose−response meta-analysis showed that melatonin gradually reduces sleep onset latency and increases total sleep time, peaking at 4 mg/day. Meta-regression models showed that insomnia status (β = 0.50, p < 0.001) and time between treatment administration and the sleep episode (β = −0.16, p = 0.023) were significant predictors of sleep onset latency, while the time of day (β = −0.086, p < 0.01) was the only significant predictor of total sleep time. Our results suggest that advancing the timing of administration (3 h before the desired bedtime) and increasing the administered dose (4 mg/day), as compared to the exogenous melatonin schedule most used in clinical practice (2 mg 30 min before the desired bedtime), might optimize the efficacy of exogenous melatonin in promoting sleep.

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@John_Hemming: what do you think about taking it 3h before bedtime?

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#317

Many of the melatonin dissolvable tabs contain xylitol which is purported to support tooth strength/enamel. I just began to use the dissolvable tabs at night with this in mind. I will be getting a stronger strength 20 mg capsule to supplement because I am now using more melatonin tabs with xylitol than I want to ingest overall.

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#318

Xylitol, brilliant! I just learned more about its benefits from the Wise Athletes most recent podcast.

My 10mg from Century 21 contains Cellulose, gum acacia, hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, stearic acid. Contains <2% of: magnesium stearate, silicon dioxide.

Are you using a particular brand you want to recommend ?

#319

My sleep is very poor by commonly accepted measures. I have no problem with sleep onset, I fall asleep very quickly, within a handful of minutes. My problem is waking up, oftentimes as soon as one hour after falling asleep, and then not able to fall back asleep for hours and hours, often until the morning, and then only get a couple of hours of sustained sleep.

So melatonin taken early, if designed for sleep onset is of little use to me. I experimented with delayed release melatonin just before bedtime, didn’t seem to make any difference. Of course those were low doses, so maybe that’s the issue for me, but otherwise melatonin hasn’t been of any use for me.

The strangest part of my sleep problems, is that subjectively I don’t feel bad as a result, despite absolutey atrocious sleep stats. I often get no more than 3-4 hours of sleep a night, very fragmented, just terrible. It’s been like this for years. And yet, I get out of bed full of energy, am not sleepy during the day, exercise just fine, even during heavy/intense exercise days, mentally don’t feel impaired, memory is fine etc.

I figure my brain is turning to mush from these terrible sleep patterns, but I still haven’t felt the effects by my age (67 in a couple of months). Maybe it’ll all come crashing down suddenly one day, lol.

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#320

Did you try taking melatonin after waking up?

How good is your sleep hygiene? Have you tried CBT-I? What helped me improve my sleep (I had similar issues: I fall asleep in a minute but sometimes wake up):

  • Sleep deprivation (this is always the first step of a CBT-I program to reset the brain)
  • Bed only for sleep and sex. So no reading in bed. No phone. No TV. No laying on the bed for a few minutes to rest. (Ideally same for the whole bedroom)
  • Early and light dinner.
  • No scrolling screens 2h before sleep.
  • EXACT same time to bed everyday
  • 0 nap during the day (or one short one, like 20 min)
  • Morning meditation
  • Front loading water in the morning and no liquid 2h before bed
  • Writing down my day and things to do for tomorrow on a piece of paper 2h before sleep
  • Tricks to fall back asleep (there are many, find the one that works for you: counting backwards, chain of words, visualisation, etc.)
  • Do not stay in the bed when you wake up at night: if you can’t fall back asleep (with the above tips) after 15 minutes then leave the bed, leave the room, go in a warm dark place with a blanket on you, do something relaxing (such as reading a book), no screens, and when you dose off: go back to bed.
  • No coffee/tea after 2pm (even earlier if you’re sensitive).
  • Cool bedroom (18°C)
  • Total blackout + eyemask
  • No exercise in the evening
  • Sunlight in the morning
  • Same ritual before bed
  • Gratitude journaling
  • No clocks in the bedroom: when you wake up, don’t look at the clock.
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#321

The natrol brand has xylitol. I get mine from Costco as it is the best price, however, I need to increase my dose by taking a 20 mg capsule and then supplement with a Natrol melatonin when I awaken in the night. Otherwise, I would be getting too much xylitol.

Melatonin never really impressed me at the .3-6 mg doses taken prior to sleep, but taking the chewable tabs when I awaken (20-40 mgs spread throughout the night) has given me amazing results. I am new to this higher dosing (less than a week) so take my anecdote with a grain of salt, but so far I’m sold. One thing that has been a game changer is that I can chew the tabs without water which tends to flow right through me, so im not having to get up to pee as much. Hallelujah!!

1 Like
#322

Thank you for that list. But for me, the whole issue is very complicated. Through the years, I’ve tried various approaches, including the full gamut of sleep hygiene, but some things I just find extremely difficult, sadly. Like meditation - I just have no patience, I’v tried meditating in various contexts many times over the years, but I just can’t… I might have faulty brain wiring that is resistant to meditation, even when it seems like I’m there, I get a sudden overwhelming feeling of wasting time (yikes!). No reading in bed - very hard, but doable. However, when I wake up, it seems pointless, because countless times I’ll just lie there in the dark for hours without falling asleep - I’ve done it so often…may as well start reading.

The only thing that does “work” for me, is sleep deprivation. If I wake up after one hour of sleep and get up, after a couple of nights of sleeping only an hour I can crash and sleep a solid 6-7-8 hours. So why don’t I do it more often? Because the rebound is terrific. Meaning after sleeping 6-7-8 hours I feel so full of energy, so wired, that I simply cannot sleep at all the next night! It’s as if I drank 10 cups of coffee. So what happens is: (1)sleep problems (2)initiate sleep deprivation (3)crash for a good night (4)following day feel so wired/full of energy that I cannot sleep → back to (1)sleep problems.

I have to do something, but I feel a bit discouraged. I’m hoping that somehow naturally, my energy levels will fall off with age, and I’ll just sleep solidly from sheer exhaustion like a normal person.

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#323

The core to meditation is breathing exercises which directly affect the vagus nerve and autonomous nervous system. Try box breathing which is breathe in slowly say for a count of 5 (count depends on what you can do), then hold for the same count, then breathe out for that count and then hold again (for the same count).

The NSDR Yoga Nidra sort of thing can also help.

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#324

Start a CBT-I program. It’s proven: it works (not necessarily magic but it improves outcomes in most people). In the UK I did https://www.sleepstation.org.uk it’s a six-week program so very low commitment. I’m sure there are equivalents where you live.

Again: have you tried taking melatonin 3 mg after waking up during the night?

Meditation: are you doing it alone? It’s hard at the beginning. An app like Headspace can help to learn the skills.

If you really can’t, as suggested by John: do some yoga in the morning instead. Ideally a practice that includes a few minutes of meditation at the beginning and at the end.

1 Like
#325

Sorry for the double post:

  1. If you read in bed you send the signal to your brain NOT to fall asleep in bed.
  2. When you wake up, don’t “just lie there in the dark for hours without falling asleep”: leave the bed and leave the room! It’s essential. Then you can read outside. Until you feel tired again. Then go back to bed. If you don’t: that’s fine. You wake up at 3am, you’re sleep deprived, you resist not to have a nap and not to go to bed earlier than you set time. And you repeat the process. That’s how you reset and rewire your brain.

Also: remove all clocks and screens from your bedroom. When you wake up: don’t look at the clock. Never.

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#326

If people are using a sleep tracker they can work out when the ultradian cycles are from that an understand that they should aim to catch the next cycle change.

Also using breathing exercises (nsdr) followed by turning on the side is good. Turning on the side (and I think Right is best) stimulates the vagus nerve (vagus is not symmetrical) and helps to tell the body that it is time to sleep.

@CronosTempi should tell himself that breathing exercises are needed for sleep and sleep is important hence breathing exercises are important.

I have more recently taken to having jazz music on at a very low volume. This does not prevent me from sleeping, but does stop me thinking about things necessarily.

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#327

To explain this issue.

There is a thing called the Cortisol Awakening Response which is basically all about waking up. There are three hormones in this CRH ( Corticotropin-releasing hormone), ACTH ( Adrenocorticotropic Hormone) and Cortisol.

The interplay between these hormones creates the ultradian cycle. Without going into the details it is normally every 90 minutes.

If Cortisol is high then people are awake and cannot sleep. This is in the sympathetic state. This is obviously a continuum of values, but in a sense we can think about a switch.

One thing I have been studying is the relationship between melatonin and this cycle.

What I have discovered is that at the end of the cycle if serum melatonin is going down then the cycle switches into the sympathetic state.

Hence if you take melatonin just before bed, and the amount is large enough to overwhelm serum quantities when the cycle next changes because of the 30 minute half life of serum melatonin the ultradian cycle that next occurs will be pushed towards the sympathetic state.

If you take melatonin in the previous cycle (say 2 hours before hand for safety) the serum level will be dominated most likely by endogenous melatonin and hence will be in the parasympathetic state.

This is why melatonin can wake you up if you take enough at the right/wrong time.

Most time release melatonin does not last long enough, but in a limited way it can overcome this.

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#328

The cornerstone of CBT is the idea that thoughts create our feelings and that many of our thoughts are distorted. Therefore, if you are telling yourself or having automatic thoughts that lying down to meditate is ‘a waste of time’, ‘so boring’, ‘never going to work for me’, ‘my brain is different’, CBT would predict that you will feel bored, restless, impatient, and hopeless, or something like that. The work would entail really understanding what, if any, thought distortions exist. Most importantly, however, is the initial question of whether someone wants any help at all.

Hope this wasn’t too intrusive. I am reading a CBT book currently, so I’ve got this stuff on the brain.

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#329

I was a lot happier about using meditative practices when I learnt that it is the slowing of breathing that actually creates a physiological effect. Calming the mind goes into the HPA axis as well. Before that I thought meditation was woo woo.

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#330

I thought I would put a link from this topic to some research I have posted in another topic about melatonin and the pineal.

Melatonin treatment in C57BL/6 male mice beginning at 19months prolonged absolute duration of survival by 6 months.

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