#29

A couple of times I did resistance training during the FMD, but it just made me more hungry and miserable. Since resistance training causes micro-damage to the muscle fibers, which then get stronger/bigger during the repair process, it would seem counter-productive to do resistance training during a fast, when you have little or no protein or resources for that repair process. This is presumably why Prolon specifically recommends against any kind of significant exercise during the FMD protocol (walking or gentle Yoga, for instance, is ok). The studies they’ve published back up the lean-tissue-sparing results of the FMD. I haven’t looked for studies with other kinds of fasting along with resistance training (vs no resistance training) and lean mass, but that would be interesting to see.

#30

Don’t know about studies here either. I do remember that Peter Attia’s fasting protocol has resistance training during the fast to counteract risks of muscle loss.

Perhaps: Since autophagy is happening there are some building blocks available (and perhaps it even helps increase autophagy in other tissues)… not sure.

1 Like
#31

Yes, that’s something I’ve actually wondered about, too, but the increased hunger from resistance training was a killer for me (it’s already hard enough). BUT, now that I have a GLP-1 agonist to play with (Rybelsus tablets), this could conceivably be a game-changer for making fasting that much easier because of the appetite-suppressant effect. The main thing I wonder about is if the uptick in insulin from GLP agonism could counteract some of the autophagy. Question would be is if there really is any considerable real-world, clinically significant uptick of insulin during fasting or FMD protocol combined with GLP agonist.

1 Like
#32

Ive never done a dexa, but ive had probably 10 CT scans in the past five years with good view of my ribs, spine, and pelvis, so not sure if i can repurpose these to “approximate” a dexa’s quantification; i see the radiologist notes on “normal age related spinal deterioration in vertebrates 4 and 5” but i was assumed this is very normal. I really only started heavy lifting last year January and with it started eating heavily animal protein so I’m looking forward to see if I’m making my 4&5 worse with heavy deadlifts and squats (i recently squatted 335 pounds and im hoping for 400 in December), making them more dense, or no change. I started fasts three years ago so if it shows up in a CT scan we would have already seen this effect.

1 Like
#33

I’m one who almost cries if I have to delay my morning almond milk latte to get labs done, but I’ve done aprox 12 rounds of Prolon (have not done one in a year), and truly, day 3 is brutal, but other than that, the only hard thing is not wanting those god forsaking soups. The thing I’m mostly excited about after finishing is my latte, and not much else… and this is from someone who can not fast for 24 hours. I have not actually noticed any difference in my labs, fwiw, but I am still a believer it’s helping in ways I can’t see… at least that is my hope! My goal is to start rapa in the coming months!

5 Likes
#34

Systemic proteome adaptions to 7-day complete caloric restriction in humans

Nature Metabolism

We demonstrate nine distinct proteomic response profiles, with systemic changes evident only after 3 days of complete calorie restriction based on in-depth characterization of the temporal trajectories of ~3,000 plasma proteins measured before, daily during, and after fasting. The multi-organ response to complete caloric restriction shows distinct effects of fasting duration and weight loss and is remarkably conserved across volunteers with >1,000 significantly responding proteins. The fasting signature is strongly enriched for extracellular matrix proteins from various body sites, demonstrating profound non-metabolic adaptions, including extreme changes in the brain-specific extracellular matrix protein tenascin-R. Using proteogenomic approaches, we estimate the health consequences for 212 proteins that change during fasting across ~500 outcomes and identified putative beneficial (SWAP70 and rheumatoid arthritis or HYOU1 and heart disease), as well as adverse effects. Our results advance our understanding of prolonged fasting in humans beyond a merely energy-centric adaptions towards a systemic response that can inform targeted therapeutic modulation.

3 Likes
Predicting Alzheimers & Dementia (and minimizing risk)
2 years of mild caloric restriction significantly reduces biological age
Dietary restriction impacts health and lifespan of genetically diverse mice
#35

I’d like to see a study like this looking at proteome adaptations over a week, after 2 or 3 days of significant rapamycin use, and a comparison between the results of that to this study.

4 Likes
#36

Great idea. Perhaps email the team and suggest it?

Should be low cost and since they already have all the content formed, the test machinery up and running, might not need a new grant at all and they will likely get another high impact paper.

We could probably also help them find Rapa curious people who have never taken Rapa and who could be the test subjects if they need that type of population.

If they say that they have no funding we could ask how much they need and perhaps we could crowdsource a bit here on the forum and see if eg AgeLess and Healthspan and Matt K / Peter A communities/network could chip in

1 Like
#37

Its very easy (and cheap) to replicate the Prolon diet and actually improve on it because you can use less processed food. I’ve done it once - having reverse engineered prolon, and mainly using a home made minestrone soup. Its relatively easy to stick to for a few days, but not enjoyable by any stretch

I’ll dig out the protocol.

2 Likes
#38

This is my take on the Prolon diet:

A fasting-mimicking diet (FMD) is low in calories, sugars and proteins, but includes relatively high levels of plant based complex carbohydrates and healthy fats.
5 Days is the target – “autophagy” starts from day 3
TARGET 10% PROTEIN 45% FAT AND CARB
ZERO TO LOW GLUCOSE
Day 1 = 1100 Calories
Day 2-5 = 717 Calories

Here’s a daily menu overview

  1. An omega 3 tablet
  2. Soup x 3 portions (300ml each)
  3. Avo + Mozzarella Salad
  4. Fast Bar
  5. Glycerine Drink
    • Drinks = herbal tea + water as much as you like!

Recipes

Fast Bar recipe is here: https://mycrashtestlife.com/2019/08/13/homemade-keto-fasting-bars/

Miso Soup: Miso paste 10g, spring onions x 2, tomatoes x 4 cherry, shiitake mushrooms 8g dried, parsley, chillies. We had this for breakfast

Minestrone: Fry 4 rashers of smoky bacon with garlic and 2 x shallots. Add 2 x tins of chopped tomatoes, 1 litre of quality chicken stock, 2 x tins of cannellini, parsley. + 5grams of grated parmesan! We had this for lunch and supper. [this makes about 7 x 300ml portions – enough for 3.5 days!]

Avo Salad – Half an avo + quarter of a mozzarella + 5cherry toms + basil + 2.5g of olive oil

Glycerine Drink – add 5ml of glycerine to a pint of water

5 Likes
#39

Was this assuming 3 fasts per year x 5 days for 20 years? So 300 days of eating soup for 12 years life extension payback? Not a bad ROI

4 Likes
#40

I’m really impressed with FMD. Some points I was unaware of:

  • "No loss of Lean body mass retention. " (well, not stat-sig at least).
  • Reduced abdominal fat vs mediteranean. Ie 25d eat what you usually do, 5 days Prolon vs 30 day Med.
  • (in mice) It improved inflammatory bowel vs a water fast made it worse

FMD vs Med: Fasting mimicking diet cycles versus a Mediterranean diet and cardiometabolic risk in overweight and obese hypertensive subjects: a randomized clinical trial | npj Metabolic Health and Disease
The FMD group gained 0.1 lbs lean mass, while losing 7.8 lbs after 4 months of 25 / 5 - std diet / FMD. That’s truly incredible! https://www.nature.com/articles/s44324-023-00002-1/tables/2

Based on this, I dont see a good reason not to do these Prolon or roll-your-own FMD more regularly. And it provides a great reason to do FMD instead of water fasting (preserve your lean mass).

Next someone needs to trial what effect adding a rapa dose on day 1 or 2 has on the outcomes :smiley:

2 Likes
#41

Valter Longo is on Rich Roll today.
I imagine he’ll be discussing his new book, fasting cancer

4 Likes
#42

What do you mean?

Between the two diets, out of 34 comparisons not a single one showed a statistically significant difference between groups. So the fasting mimicking diet did nothing.

Has anyone seen a fasting study showing benefits in humans where there was no statistical difference in bodyweight between groups at the end of the trial?

#43

I notice the FMD versions posted above don’t seem to have any nuts as part of the protocol. I would have thought that a handful of assorted nuts would provide useful micronutrients?

2 Likes
#44

I await an analysis of this study by Matt Kaeberlein or some other similar unbiased expert. He will point out the flaws in this study and explain why it means nothing. I have read much of what Kaeberlein has written about fasting and he believes it has little to no benefit for lifespan in otherwise healthy people. I cannot believe that such a mindbogglingly effective intervention increasing life expectancy 12.5 years has escaped his attention totally. I wish it were true. I know it is not true.

#45

My belief (only) is probably that there is something here. Fasting has great lifespan results for all organisms and I suspect it holds true for humans. Whether the fmd approach captures the benefit seems plausible. The problem is that compliance is awful. If you’ve ever tried the fmd you’ll know its not fun.
300 days of soup eating for 12 years extra life is a decent return. But not many people will actually do it. Even if it is true. Certainly not me.

If the data is to be believed it also suggests that the autophagy only truly kicks in from day four. So halfhearted attempts at intermittent fasting may not really aggregate to very much.

What excited me is understanding the possible mechanism(s) behind the fmd approach. That has encouraged me to try a slightly longer duration of mtor inhibition with rapamycin.

So i now split dose over two consecutive days in an attempt to inhibit mtor1 for 4 days+
it’s all guess work at the moment and half life for rapamycin seems to be variable by individual. But given the 4 day autophagy affect in the data, and the low risk of sides it seems a not unreasonable strategy

2 Likes
#46

The “fast bar” is mainly nuts. If you ever try FMD - the fast bar us the best thing about it. Really easy to make your own

2 Likes
#47

Thanks. The FMD diet package seemed horribly expensive for an upmarket version of “Cuppa Soups”. I cook my own yummy meals and I doubt I’d want to go 4 days on those soups, so possibly I should get one of the FMD diet books and do my own version.

2 Likes
#48

I did the FMD from the get-go. Originally Longo offered advice on doing the meal plan without Prolon. But then he backed off that for various reasons.

My understanding - 2 avocados covers the basic daily calories and proper ratio of carbs/proteins/fats. But the key is low protein. When doing it yourself - you will be surprised at how difficult it is to get protein low enough even with all vegetables. Josh Mitteldorf has a nice site for recipes that foodies will like Recipes for a Fasting-Mimicking Diet

3 Likes