cl-user
#81
I’m looking at those papers and I just noticed something that might be of interest for that forum:
Rapamycin and PI3-kinase inhibitor, an upstream regulator of the mTOR signaling pathway, could block this stimulatory effect
Basically people should use PEMF on their non rapamycin days preferably.
2 Likes
medaura
#82
You can build one following these instructions:
It just will be orders of magnitude weaker field. It might be a good option for anyone who wants to try it without breaking the bank.
1 Like
medaura
#83
cl-user
#84
Sorry but it’s a terrible design 
1 Like
tananth
#85
The FDA approved device for bone healing claimed their clinical trial for spinal fusion increased the likelihood of successful bone healing from 68% to 92% : Given that failure to heal would result in another $25K spinal surgery, even the outrageous $5000 they bill insurance for a “1 Year license to use” probably saves the insurance company money. My wife’s bone healed without problems, but no way to know if she would have been one of the 68% that would have healed without this PEMF device anyway.
It sounds strange that they don’t ask the patient to just mail the device back, but it probably costs them under $100 to manufacture and would cost a similar amount to clinically sterilize the product for the next patient.
3 Likes
DrRoss
#86
I’ve had my BEMER pulsed electro-magnetic frequency device for 6 years. Bemer has more solid science documentation behind its affects, and any other PEMF device on the market.
If you want to talk with me about Beamer… I’ve got tons of information to share. Contact me at: rosspelton70@gmail.com
1 Like
medaura
#87
Yes but didn’t they sponsor their own trials? It’s not the same as trials without conflict of interest. When I look at all the papers on PEMF they should apply to any device that delivers the frequencies at enough power. I’ve found zero evidence that certain wave forms work better than others. If you’ve seen any studies to that effect I’m all ears.
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stealle
#89
I think that is the marketing angle many PEMF manufacturers try to use. Here is the information you can find on many of the websites that sell the QRS Home System….
The Quantron-Resonance-System “QRS” is a remarkable development in healing and wellness developed by Dr. E.G. Fischer. To develop this profound medical technology Dr. Fischer brought together world leaders in medical science. This included two global experts in the field: Dr. Linus Pauling and Dr. Robert O Becker . Dr Pauling is a two-time Nobel Laureate for medicine and is considered the father of Orthomolecular Medicine. Dr. Robert O Becker a U.S. orthopedic surgeon, medical researcher and professor who many consider the key developer of electrophysiology and electro medicine. Their work together centered on Dr. Fischer pioneered Pulse Electro Magnetic Field (PEMF) therapy.
Pulsed Electromagnetic Field Therapy (PEMF) has been in use since the invention of electricity and its’ ability to aid healing was reported as early as 1841.
In the 1960’s to 1980’s there was a lot of laboratory based research into PEMF mainly by the Americans, Russians, Swiss and Germans. This research led to the development of QRS (Quantron Resonance System) that was used on the Russian Mir Space Station to counteract calcium depletion in cosmonaut’s bones caused by weightlessness and to improve circulation problems, increased the amount of oxygen in the bloodstream and give space travelers additional energy. At the same time, a domestic consumer system was created that was an earlier version of the QRS we have today. From 1990 to 1998 QRS (Salut) was the only PEMF system available worldwide, and obtained 3 patents securing it’s technical advantage.
I just had a chat with Bob Dennis PhD of Micro-Pulse. He is an impressive fellow. His credentials are below. I’m working on a podcast episode but wanted to share that Bob’s approach is different (and better, he says)…he has worked out the wave shape that as the biggest impact on the body tissues, and by focusing on that he needs much less energy to create an effect. His devices are smaller and less expensive. Stay tuned. I’m still researching.
——
Bob Dennis: PhD in Biomedical Engineering from U-Michigan. Faculty positions at U-Michigan, MIT-Harvard HST, and University of North Carolina (current). Consultant for NASA-JSC, DARPA-DSO, NFIM, and approximately 60 technology companies. Co-Founder of the Biomechatronics Group at the MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory. Founder of the Tissue Engineering Systems Laboratory (TESLa) at the University of Michigan. Co-Founder of Cortical Metrics LLC for the measurement of brain injury and cortical function. Founder of Micro-Pulse LLC for the development of advanced PEMF. Began researching PEMF as a consultant for NASA at the Johnson Space Center in 1997. He continues to develop high-efficiency, ultra-portable, affordable personal PEMF systems, while conducting and publishing basic scientific research in PEMF. He is the owner of Micro-Pulse LLC.
Current Positions/titles:
Associate Professor of Biomedical Engineering, University of North Carolina - NCSU Joint Program in Biomedical Engineering
Owner, Micro-Pulse LLC
Co-Owner, Cortical Metrics LLC
C0-Owner, FluxHealth
Technical Advisor, NFIM (National Foundation for Integrative Medicine) The NFIM Team – The National Foundation for Integrative Medicine
Chief Technology Advisor for Entegrion, Inc. Team – Entegrion
2 Likes
stealle
#92
Yes. This is exactly how QRS described their worldwide patent on their waveform. They believe the high intensity is not necessary and the quality of the waveform is more important and therapeutic. I’ll try to look up and find the way they describe it. But in MY own words and the way I understand it, I compare it to listening to music. You don’t need loudness (intensity) to invoke the feeling you get from listening to music. Depending on the song (waveform) it might be relaxing, uplifting, or energizing. If it’s really loud and a genre you don’t enjoy it can be stressful or at least annoying. I think PEMF is much the same. I think it’s quite possible there are many PEMF devices out there that are indeed very “powerful” but pumping out loud “noise” that your body doesn’t want and could be doing more harm than good. The QRS has 3 modes: relax, basis, and vital. I think of these 3 modes like 3 different songs. Relax is good to wind down and sleep. Basis is the primary mode of the QRS and most therapeutic. Vital is intended to energize you. Could be used as pre-workout. I am at least comforted by the fact that my QRS Home system has 3 worldwide patents and was developed by a team of scientists and is the exact same device that was used in lots of high quality studies. I’m still not sure it’s everything they claim. I have too many variables. Ive lost over 70lbs. I take lots of supplements. I do red light therapy. Yes, I feel like a million dollars. I have my PEMF device under the topper of my bed. It’s programmed to run relax mode around the time I fall asleep and it runs basis mode just as I’m waking up. Set it and forget it. It’s doing no harm that’s for sure.
1 Like
medaura
#93
Yes this is how it’s described. But I can’t find any evidence in PubMed that the wave form matters much. The rate of rise seems to make some difference but not in any clear way. If I’m wrong I’d love to see research comparing wave forms side by side. Filing a patent doesn’t mean there’s proof of effectiveness. My device uses sine waves by the way. I’ve seen plenty of research papers showing benefit with that wave form. I think because I’m using it for the pelvic floor I like cranking up the intensity because it doubles as EMS, forcing my pelvic floor muscles to contract, and strengthening them. If it was some other issue that didn’t require strong muscles I’d dial down the intensity. So far it’s helping me with the borderline incontinence / constant urge to go.
2 Likes
Do you try kegel exercises whilst running it?
I am not quite certain what wave form my system uses. I know it has some effects and I believe to have identified specific results from it. I think it starts out with a spark which can have quite a dirty wave form which is a mixture of all sorts of frequencies.
It normally limits to 12 mins a session. I may try a few more sessions to see what happens, but not at the moment as I am doing too many things currently and don’t want to add any more.
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Here is my talk with Prof Bob Dennis of Micro-Pulse PEMF.
His least expensive device is $500, and appears to be the size of a Walkman, if you know that reference.
He says PEMF reduces inflammation to accelerate healing which leads to pain relief and more. His approach has been to figure out the least power needed to provide a benefit. This has led him to build very small devices that do not cost very much to build. His website has a lot of data and a chat room of users and the curious. Chatroom: Flux Health | Healthcare in flux
4 Likes
stealle
#96
Thanks for sharing your interview. Very informative.
I find it curious tho when at 00:44:30 he says that when anyone makes the claim that PEMF recharges or energizes the mitochondria “they are lying… run for the hills”. He says they are lying more than once. He basically says it works but nobody knows exactly how it works. Then later at 01:00:25 he talks briefly about red light therapy and says “there is some pretty good science that’s come out in the past couple years that show [red light therapy] does have an effect on the mitochondrial electron transport chain… it allows your mitochondria to generate more energy, more ATP… we kind of know that there is that mechanism, right?”
Hmmm, I don’t know. Do we know for sure RLT is causing mitochondria to generate energy any more than we know that PEMF is? Why is he so quick to call those that claim (or at least hypothesize) PEMF “recharges” the mitochondria “liars” but he is so willing to say that “we kind of know” RLT recharges the mitochondria. I’d be interested to hear his response to that.
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Good question. Dr Dennis says he is an open book, and to use his chat room to ask questions. I hope you’ll challenge him on this point. My opinion is that red light / NIR has many unanswered questions on mechanism but perhaps fewer than PEMF.
This is the guy I wanted to interview for red light therapy. He’s not selling anything I’m aware of.
FWIW: Low-Intensity Light Therapy: Exploring the Role of Redox Mechanisms - PMC
Low-intensity light therapy (LILT) appears to be working through newly recognized photoacceptor systems. The mitochondrial electron transport chain has been shown to be photosensitive to red and near-infrared (NIR) light. Although the underlying mechanisms have not yet been clearly elucidated, mitochondrial photostimulation has been shown to increase ATP production
stealle
#99
Oh sure! I’m already a believer in both RLT and PEMF. I’m just not sure why Prof Bob Dennis who is also a believer in RLT and PEMF says his competition is “lying” if they say PEMF “recharges” (layman’s terminology) the mitochondria. It’s easy to find studies that say the same thing for both RLT AND PEMF.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C14&q=pemf+mitochondrial+electron+transport+chain&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1697762712165&u=%23p%3DfqqZe-_CumIJ
“This study provides experimental evidence that PEMFs improve blood flow, enhance oxygen consumption and boost ATP production by facilitating electron transport through mitochondrial electron transport chain, thereby increasing skeletal muscle cellular energy potential.”
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Good question. I hope you’ll ask him. I’m not investing in PEMF right now. I’m satisfied with my red /NIR lamp for my current needs. But if I was in need of a new solution I would definitely try Bob’s product with its low cost and money back guarantee.
