#41

Maybe I missed it. Have you mentioned the exact brand/model PEMF device you own?

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#42

I think cl-user and certainly I were being more tongue in check with our comments, and nothing too serious. Myself, were once a math and physics wiz, and with little brushing up of my skills could give many physicists a run for their money lol. I have my doubts that some kind of magnetic device will greatly improve my health and/or lifespan. If you can find one for $20-$100, I might try it (just for kicks) but anything over that, no thank you. For now, I might as well stick with RAPA and some other suppā€™s .

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#43

I agree, and my BS meter is in full tilt. Whether they work or not is highly debatable. But, what is not is that they are certainly overpriced for a device that is basically a few coils of wire and a simple controller.

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#44

My own experience with my PEMF device is that it does something and that something is generally something I have welcomed. I did another blood tests at 11am today so I am now reinstating my systems for improving mitochondria (apart from Rapamycin which I didnā€™t strictly stop although I take it really infrequently).

Because I am reinstating a number of systems it will be hard to identify specifically which ones have the effects if any.

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#45

Me too, @kansel. Less than $1 a day. And no one except a few mice I know would call it a miracle.

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#46

@John_Hemming can you be more specific as to what benefits health wise you experienced, and was it easy for you to pinpoint it to the device?

#47

When I started using the device it caused me to have loose stools for about a week, but after a week that stopped and whereas when I drank a lot of alcohol I would have loose stools that stopped. Hence it improved the function of my digestion in a manner which can be specifically linked to the device.

The mechanistic claim is an improvement in mitochondrial efficiency. The end result (improved digestion) is something that would result from improved mitochondrial efficiency.

I understand that the signal diminishes at the cube of the distance from the coils.

As people know I think one of the two key aging pathways is mitochondrial efficiency. In essence the mitochondria are less able to respond to a demand for more ATP. (the ATP/ADP gradient).

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#48

Didnā€™t bring it up yet. This is what I got and the video shows you how itā€™s set up: AliExpress

See spec sheets, especially in comparison to the Hugo Loop system, which the same manufacturer also produces and sells for the exact same price (essentially the same product @John_Hemming has been using, which is, as he attests, quite a high powered system).

02F24FBFED61B751E0C26B9D13E9AA73
02F24FBFED61B751E0C26B9D13E9AA731380Ɨ768 109 KB

Above it actually says the max power is 50,000 gauss which is 5T but everywhere else it mentions 4T, so thatā€™s either a typo or that hyper maximal performance the machine should probably never run on. Most of their built in protocols run at 30-60% intensity (% of the max 4T) but can be tweaked as needed for higher or lower intensity.

More specs & comparisons:

PHYSIO MAGNETO (PM-ST-4 ) Brochure.pdf (1.7 MB)

The machine has two modes. One they call MT and is essentially a set of 3 frequencies you choose, from 1 to 70 hz, and the treatment shifts among those three repeatedly for a set time. The other mode they call ST, which involves the frequencies of 1, 2, and 3 MEGAHERTZ. These frequencies are way too high for the range generally understood under the umbrella of PEMF and fall rather under EMTT (extracorporeal electromagneto transduction therapy), which there is less research on, but what is there seems very promising re: tissue regeneration. Because Iā€™ve actually read dozens of PubMed articles on PEMF but could find very few on EMTT for my areas of concern, Iā€™m sticking to the former so far and only tried the latter a couple of times out of curiosity. Donā€™t plan to make it a regular treatment as I donā€™t know enough about the safety of frequent use either. But since the price point was equal to the more popular Loop / Hugo model, which has lower power and fewer frequency ranges, I opted for this device instead, which was geared toward in-office physiotherapy providers.

If the placebo effect can make my bladder hold its contents overnight, put it in a bottle and sell it to me triple distilled :wink:

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#49

I think itā€™s the square, no? Is it the cube? I am not sure stronger is necessarily better as even some relatively weak field strengths had produced impressive results in the literature. The benefit of high max field strength though is the ability to reach deep tissues for certain.

#50

I love ya, but wouldnā€™t you also say that your rapa, even from the trusty Jagdish Nikose, purchased for pennies on the dollar relative to US pharmaceutical retail prices, is certainly overpriced for a bunch of pills that are basically a few milligrams of a byproduct of the digestive processes of a deserted islandā€™s dirt bacterium cased in generic enteric coating? And which you end up excreting?

Good thing Iā€™m anonymous here as the self consciousness I feel for using a product and modality that would have fully tilted my own BS meter not that long ago is real. I feel my own ghost of BS-meter-past laughing at my ghost of BS-meter-present right now, as strongly as I feel the magnetic field on this iron babyā€™s coil.

PubMed is open to all though. I invite you to take an actual look at the studies on PEMF and judge for yourself how highly debatable its effectiveness is. The FDA has approved PEMF devices for various ailments, including non union bone fracture healing. Do we think they skipped phase III clinical trials and waived the requirement to show effectiveness?

But to each their own. Iā€™m sure right this moment I must consider to be hooey things that will some day prove effective, and that I must be placing implicit faith in treatments that will later be debunked. Just donā€™t know which and Iā€™m OK with that. Iā€™m just THAT epistemologically modest. My bladder has found Jesus though.

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#51

@medaura It sounds to me that you are trying real hard to justify a nice fat $3000 expenditure that is turning out to do nothing for you. Sorry you wasted all that money. Oh well, donā€™t we all have those scenarios in one way or the other. hahaaaa just teasing you dude. If it works, it works and that is great. But for me, it is jaut abit too expensive, if you live in my area have no problem borrowing yours :slight_smile:

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#52

It was $2000 not $3000, letā€™s not play fast and loose with numbers. Though all this ā€œhostileā€ cross examination began with the assumption that thereā€™s no way I could have ONLY paid $2000 to generate a magnetic field of 4T under my butt ā€” where I really need it. :smiley:

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#53

I think because it is a dipole it is the cube.

#54

You may be right. Either way it decays real fast with distance which is why I prioritized field strength as the most valuable spec, thinking by the time (or rather by the centimeters) it reaches my areas of concern it will be much attenuated.

#55

From my point of view the fact that I can feel it perhaps 1 inch or further under the skin it implies that it is getting in at least an inch.

Where I feel it is in my intestines.

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#56

I am still open-minded on this, but like many things like resveratrol, NMN, etc. it is based on weak evidence.
My main objection is that this is a very low-tech device and does not justify the prices they are charging.
They are relying on the ignorance of the customers to keep on selling this magnetic wonder at prices that are ridiculous relative to production costs.

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#57

Ouch, never to mince words, and always on point. hahaa

#58

My main objection is that this is a very low-tech device and does not justify the prices they are charging.
This is something you should know. If you can disprove this please do.

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#59

I think we should agree to disagree with respect to what constitutes strength of evidence, or its thresholds. But are in perfect agreement as to the ignorance of western customers and their willingness to swallow ridiculous markups. This applies to 90% of the products sold on Amazon in any category though. The markup compared to the price if you buy direct from the crap-churning Chinese factory is often 50-100%. To say nothing of anything with a ā€œbrand nameā€ attached to it. But that doesnā€™t seem to be a function of the mysterious and magic magnetic wonder at the root of the purported mechanism of action as the same willingness to swallow insane markups applies to products of much more pedestrian technology.

But yes, Tony Robbins is on YouTube singing the praises of the Hugo / Loop system in the douchiest terms and making it clear he paid $16k for it! I see it $1.5-2K direct from the manufacturer. @John_Hemming paid Ā£6K. But a) the market determines the price, supply and demand, demand here being largely a function of the prospectā€™s appreciation for the strength of the evidence of benefits (if you think itā€™s weak youā€™ll be less willing to dish out cash) b) the value isnā€™t determined by a fixed markup over production cost, that would be a Marxist theory of value that I certainly donā€™t subscribe to neither would most modern economists c) I canā€™t speak for the Loop system but the one I purchased has close to $500-600 value considered purely as scrap metal ā€” weighs 50+ kilos of iron / steel and has plenty of electronic components inside for the UI unit that lets me modulate intensity of field as well as choose the frequencies and set timers. Not to mention the water cooling system. Also $300 of the total cost was DHL shipping from China (because of the weight and dimensions). Itā€™s a device that hasnā€™t penetrated the North American market yet but when and if it does I expect it will retail for an order of magnitude more than I paid for it.

My own personal BS o-meter for this range of products goes in full tilt when I see low power devices that use as their USP the various ā€œwave shapesā€ in their programs, as if thereā€™s any literature supporting one over the other. That bit seems like pure poppycock to me and appeals to the credulity of the customer. The underlying system of coils is completely underwhelming relative to the price.

But I want to go back to discussing strength of evidence. Iā€™m genuinely curious as to how much youā€™ve grazed afield on PubMed to be so dismissive.

#60

I am interested in whether it works. I am not intending to sell them myself so the only price question is whether I will pay it. I have done.

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