I don’t think this paper has been discussed in the forum before: Dose-Dependent Acute Effects of Everolimus Administration on Immunological, Neuroendocrine and Psychological Parameters in Healthy Men 2020

The rapamycin analogue everolimus (EVR) is a potent inhibitor of the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) and clinically used to prevent allograft rejections as well as tumor growth. The pharmacokinetic and immunosuppressive efficacy of EVR have been extensively reported in patient populations and in vitro studies. However, dose-dependent ex vivo effects upon acute EVR administration in healthy volunteers are rare. Moreover, immunosuppressive drugs are associated with neuroendocrine changes and psychological disturbances. It is largely unknown so far whether and to what extend EVR affects neuroendocrine functions, mood, and anxiety in healthy individuals. Thus, in the present study, we analyzed the effects of three different clinically applied EVR doses (1.5, 2.25, and 3 mg) orally administered 4 times in a 12-hour cycle to healthy male volunteers on immunological, neuroendocrine, and psychological parameters. We observed that oral intake of medium (2.25 mg) and high doses (3 mg) of EVR efficiently suppressed T cell proliferation as well as IL-10 cytokine production in ex vivo mitogen-stimulated peripheral blood mononuclear cell. Further, acute low (1.5 mg) and medium (2.25 mg) EVR administration increased state anxiety levels accompanied by significantly elevated noradrenaline (NA) concentrations. In contrast, high-dose EVR significantly reduced plasma and saliva cortisol as well as NA levels and perceived state anxiety. Hence, these data confirm the acute immunosuppressive effects of the mTOR inhibitor EVR and provide evidence for EVR-induced alterations in neuroendocrine parameters and behavior under physiological conditions in healthy volunteers.

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Study design. Three different EVR doses (1.5, 2.25, or 3 mg) were orally administered 4× in a 12-hour cycle to healthy men. Blood and saliva samples were withdrawn before (day (D)1) and after (D3, D8, and D15) oral administration of EVR and subjected to further analysis. EVR, everolimus.

Although impaired mTOR signaling has been implicated in neurocognitive dysfunctions and neurodegenerative processes, it remains uncertain whether and to what extent clinically used doses of the mTOR inhibitor EVR affect neurocognitive and psychological parameters in healthy humans. Our data revealed that an acute EVR administration with low and medium doses induced an increase in state anxiety levels, whereas intake of the high doses did not affect state anxiety. These findings indicate that the induced changes in state anxiety apparently depend on the administered EVR dosage. This notion is supported by studies in rats showing that acute one-time and repeated rapamycin treatment with low doses (1 mg/kg) and high doses (3 mg/kg) resulted in anxiety-related behavior probably induced by mTOR-independent mechanisms leading to hyperexcitability of the amygdala. Moreover, anxiety (e.g., following a drug treatment) has been associated with the perception of drug-induced side effects. The fact that participants hardly reported medication-attributed side effects, although a significant increase of state anxiety was observed in the low-dose and medium-dose groups, indicates that acute intake of therapeutic EVR doses indeed does not induce subjectively perceived side effects.
Anxiety, stress, and depression are directly linked to the activation of the sympathetic nervous system reflected by elevated release of NA and specific brain regions that, in turn, stimulates the HPA axis and the release of cortisol. Because we observed increased NA levels along with not affected cortisol levels after acute EVR intake in the low-dose and medium-dose groups, our data indicate that both EVR doses might lead to an activation of the sympathetic adrenomedullary system probably not accompanied by changes in HPA activity. In contrast, high-dose EVR treatment reduced plasma and saliva cortisol without directly affecting NA level and state anxiety. Whether the reduction in NA levels on D8 and D15 in the high-dose group was directly induced by EVR or rather was mediated by secondary factors (e.g., drug withdrawal (rebound effect)) has to be validated in further experiments. Although plasma NA concentration is a useful parameter to assess sympathetic nerve activity, more functional analyses (i.e., pupillometry, heart rate variability, and/or salivary alpha-amylase activity), might provide more details on the effect of the different EVR doses on sympathetic nerve activity in future research. We observed dose-dependent ex vivo effects of EVR on cytokine production on D3, however, this was not the case for the assessed cortisol and NA levels. These findings indicate specific thresholds for EVR blood concentration that associate with changes in cortisol levels in saliva and plasma as well as NA plasma levels compared with baseline values assessed before drug intake.

The dosing schedule is a bit weird, but do other papers confirm that anxiety increases at low dose but decreases at high dose with everolimus or sirolimus?

Given the half-life, ChatGPT tells me that this dosing schedule is equivalent (in terms of content in the body) to about taking once a 2x larger dose. So 3 mg, 4.5 mg or 6 mg. The equivalence between everolimus and sirolimus is not straightforward but let’s say it’s 1:1.

Then, if the above finding is also true for sirolimus it would mean that one needs higher doses (~6 mg) to avoid sympathetic activation and anxiety?

Could this explain the conflicting reports on the effect of rapa on anxiety, HRV or sleep?

Even more so if you assume that what matters is the mg/kg dose. These healthy young men had BMI ~ 23 kg/m2:

Can this be related to this low-dose risk mentioned here:

@CronosTempi: as you looked at the best starting dose for rapa, what do you think?

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One of the proposed mechanisms for Ketamine’s anti-depressant and anti-anxiety effects is MTOR activation in the brain. If everolimus does penetrate the BBB, this could explain the anxiety effect. The differences at different dose levels could be because the higher doses induce some other change that counteracts the anxiety induced by MTOR inhibition.

It’s difficult to tease this out though because anxiety and depression are quite multifactorial, and because MTOR inhibition (or activation) has so many downstream impacts, it’s hard to pin down what would happen when messing with MTOR.

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I thought that this was wrong based on: Modulation of the antidepressant effects of ketamine by the mTORC1 inhibitor rapamycin 2020

Twenty patients suffering a major depressive episode were randomized to pretreatment with oral rapamycin (6 mg) or placebo 2 h prior to the intravenous administration of ketamine 0.5 mg/kg in a double-blind cross-over design with treatment days separated by at least 2 weeks.
we found higher response (41%) and remission rates (29%) following rapamycin + ketamine compared to placebo + ketamine (13%, p = 0.04, and 7%, p = 0.003, respectively)

:thinking:

Did the 6mg get into the brain is the question. The other thing to consider is that ketamine has a wide range of effects in the brain, and it’s possible that cutting off just one of them is not sufficient to eliminate the anti-depression effects. Ie the combination of ketamine’s other effects + rapamycin effects may be more efficacious DESPITE inhibiting MTOR.

Put another way, if the study found that it eliminated ketamine’s anti-depressant and anti-anxiety effects, we would have strong evidence that MTOR activation is critical. The opposite result actually doesn’t tell us as much about whether MTOR is important or not in ketamine administration without rapamycin.

Also FWIW, anecdotally I’ve noticed no difference in ketamine’s effects with or without rapamycin using the same protocol as in the study. I’d like to see that study repeated with sirolimus levels measured at various time points. One possibility is that administering rapamycin lead to MTOR inhibition in the brain initially leading to positive changes like reduced inflammation, but as it penetrated less and less, ketamine’s MTOR activation overpowered it. I’d be really curious about using a larger dose too to really be sure we’re knocking out MTOR given the extreme individual variability in rapamycin absorption and clearance. Like really large 20mg or more, since we know that extreme doses given one time seem to be ok with perhaps only some acute side effects.

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In my own experience, I started off with 3mg/1-week, next week 4mg, then following week 5mg and finally 6mg with then maintaining the 6mg/1-week dose and schedule, the 6mg I’ve now done 4 times. Zero psychological effect that I could sense at any dose, and I was pretty careful to try to observe any and all effects. The PEARL trial had a variety of dosages up to 3mg/1-week at the highest, so pretty much covering the low to moderate levels and no excess anxiety reported - notably we are talking about both men and women. What is significant in my mind, is the fact that there were some differential physiological effects between men and women at those doses, with women experiencing stronger effects than men. That tells me one thing: those dosages ranging from the equivalent of 1-3mg per week were enough to induce physiological changes, but not psychological ones. In other words you can’t say “these doses do nothing” - they do, physiologically, just not psychologically. Now, one may say this is somewhat confounded by it being sirolimus not everolimus, but then we have the Mannick study which was in everolimus. There we have had again, doses that should have triggered these effects of anxiety ranging from 0.5mg daily, 5mg weekly 20mg weekly - and yet there were no excess anxiety effects reported that I am aware of. Now, it’s possible that the anxiety effect was present, but not reported in either of the trials, but I’d think if it was significan enough there would be some kind of note to that effect.

My thoughts are that what is different between these trials is the age - we are generally talking about older adults (including my own n-1 example), with the Mannick study pushing that much further into older age. Old age + everolimus. Even going to the rodent studies, I believe that most are not in the ITP equivalent age group, as the ITP were generally older, and again, I don’t think any anxious behavior was reported in the ITP, though of course that doesn’t mean much as I don’t remember them monitoring that kind of behavior at all.

What is different about older vs younger adults - well, for one, we do know that the hormonal response is different between them (the whole TRT movement wouldn’t exist if that were not the case, lol). Psychoactive substances in general, even alcohol has a differential effect depending on age, and you have to adjust the dose depending on age (frequent observation among my friends - we can’t handle alcohol the same as when we were younger, it takes a lot less!). So my first observation would be - the odds are high that this is age specific. On the one hand you have young healthy males. On the other, you have a middle age or older population. Run the same study using older adults and then we’ll talk.

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I posted about this here as well (just copying my thoughts):

Could be this, also how some become euphoric from Rapamycin. :joy:
It also makes sense why some get anxious from rapamycin, or even feel better.
So (?):

Rapamycin → Increased Noradrenaline → Increased HR, blood glucose, anxiety, euphoria, depression
Rapamycin → PCSK9 → Increased blood lipids

Inhibiting mTOR maybe mimics “you’re starving! get some food!”, so rapamycin is just using something the body already have but in a different way? Which would limit I believe any mTOR inhibitors effect on lifespan? Or super refined or in combination with other treatments?
Rapamycin and Impact on heart rate and HRV? - #155 by AnUser

It might also be the reason why some feel better from rapamycin?

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But why would these negative effects disappear past a certain dose? (assuming this trial can be reproduced)

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I don’t know, good question, and I don’t want to speculate either.

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