I have been taking 500mg daily for decades. Currently, I am only taking it on days that I take rapamycin because I am conducting a muscle hypertrophy experiment on myself.
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I feel it as misery. More lactate just feels harder. I donāt know if that is a natural physiological sensation or merely a learned one, but I feel it. It doesnāt seem to limit me (now that Iām not racing) but my comfortable hard pace is lower.
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Hi David - Iām jumping in here after searching for HCG on the forum and finding this thread and few others. Iām in my 60s and have been on HCG for some years. It has a great impact on both total T and free T for me. Last year, I went on low dose rapa and it appeared to wipe out the impact of HCG so I discontinued the rapa. Have you heard any similar anecdotes? There is some chance that I had a bad batch of HCG or at least that would offer a better set of options. Thanks.
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No I have never noticed any effects on muscle development. I say this as someoone that has lifted weights for 25 years and closely monitor my strength and muscle mass. I think the potential effect of metformin on skeletal muscle growth is exaggerated. I think the effect must be either insignificant in most people, or only seen in minority of people.
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I donāt disagree on ApoB/LDL being mostly a necessary cause and that if you get them low enough you can stop atherosclerosis with almost full certainty. Iām aware of the lack of atherosclerosis in people with abetalipoproteinemia. My reason for not trying to drive ApoB/LDL to extremely low levels is that it may have other side effects that in some people make it a risky approach. I think itās less risky to get apoB/LDL very low, yet not super low, and then focus on also improving other health parameters to stop atherosclerosis fully.
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AnUser
#658
I have not seen evidence that other health parameters in combination with low LDL is able to stop atherosclerosis, nor evidence of safety.
Ultra low LDL is proven safe in clinical trials, and efficacious on progression by proxy of regression of plaques, and also reducing rate of negative outcomes which is very important.
If anything the safest bet is to have ultra low LDL and improving other health parameters, since so few percent have a CAC that is zero in late life and because of the evidence of safety and efficacy.
If you disregard ultra low LDL despite of clinical trial evidence of safety and efficacy - there is a lot of things you will have to disregard then. The negative effects from certain genetic conditions is by mechanism of lowering I have heard Thomas Dayspring said, evident either way from not being picked up in the RCTās.
Other parameters can stop atherosclerosis. This is evident by the fact that many people under age 40 donāt have any detectable atherosclerosis yet do not have ultra low LDL levels. Also there are some people that have suffered from very high LDL levels for decades, yet do not have detectable plaque. Here is an example: A 72-Year-Old Patient with Longstanding, Untreated Familial Hypercholesterolemia but no Coronary Artery Calcification: A Case Report - PubMed Fact is, atherosclerosis is a multifactorial process influenced by several things. Someone with low LDL that smokes, doesnāt exercise, has elevated inflammation, high blood pressure and low ApoA can have much greater atherosclerosis than someone with higher LDL that exercises regularly, has very low inflammation, low blood pressure and high ApoA.
If your only goal is to have zero atherosclerosis and disregard risk of other health conditions then I would agree with you that itās best to have ultra low LDL. But I think if you take other conditions into account thatās not the best thing. It may increase risk of things other than atherosclerosis to have such ultra low LDL. I think overall itās safer to have very low LDL, yet not ultra low, and to do other things also to get the atherosclerosis risk as close to zero as you can without ultra low LDL. I say this because with everything, there is always a level that is too far, and is too much of a good thing. In case of ultra low LDL, there is already some evidence suggesting that it increases the risk of hemorrhagic stroke. There may be other risk we donāt know of.
I think itās a good rule in biology to always be careful with modifying parameters to very extreme values if long term health is a goal. There is almost always a point where if you take things too far, something bad happens.
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AnUser
#660
Thatās not because of other parameters, itās because of time. There has not been enough time for the apoB to do its damage. ASCVD is not an aging related disease, it is a time based disease. This is shown by the fact if you massively increase apoB that will make the time required for it to have an effect shorter.
Thatās true, just like there are people who have smoked for decades yet not develop lung cancer. It is unlikely you will get lung cancer if you do not smoke, however.
It is multifactorial as long as you have the necessary cause.
I am not talking about low LDL, with ultra low LDL I donāt think that is possible.
No there is no such risks in the clinical trials, and that is what guides my decision making.
Source for this?
My own view is that it is an aging and time based disease. I have quite a bit to do at the moment, but I think part of the cause is the failure of epithelial cells to differentiate properly. I have in the past looked at papers on this and if you want me to try to substantiate this with research papers I will do the work, but I need to walk the dog now and donāt have the spare time this minute.
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AnUser
#662
I have a hard time believing in anything that isnāt very simple or has parsimony Occam's razor - Wikipedia
Backed up with RCTās, outcome trials, etc is a very large plus as well.
Iām not interested in debating this anymore than what Iāve done already. I stand by my conclusion that people should be careful about known or unknown risks when it comes to modifying biomarkers to extremes.
Since you asked for a source on ultra low LDL possibly increasing the risk of hemorrhagic stroke. Here is one reference for that: Does statin increase the risk of intracerebral hemorrhage in stroke survivors? A meta-analysis and trial sequential analysis - PubMed
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AnUser
#665
I donāt have much more to say on this topic.
It is not related to ultra low LDL but statin and risk of ICH, the authors conclude statin still are a net benefit which is what matters and the patients who had an LDL decrease of more than 30% had lower risk of ICH, albeit still elevated, than those who had one below 30%. Which means that a greater decrease in LDL had lower risk with statin use than those who had a lower one. But thanks for making me aware of this risk.
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Its completely fine to agree to disagree. In fact, Its going to be unusual that we agree here on everything. You guys handled it well here - brought lots of evidence to the table, disagreed respectfullyā¦ hopefully a model for future disagreements.
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David
#667
@Jblackbourn Hey Joe! I have not. We have some evidence with Rapamycin delaying menopause for women, but the small amount I have seen an either neutral or negative on testosterone levels and Rapa. HCG is usually effective in our younger male population, but usually not helpful as we gain wisdom 
It is impressive you have got in to your 60ās just on the HCG. It may be time to weigh out risks and benefits of TRT vs. other options.
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Thanks for the perspective!
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*this adds to my protocol above
So a while ago there was a post on here:
Elite Athletes Swear by These Extreme Treatments. Scientists Think They Could Boost Your Health, Too (WSJ) - General - Rapamycin Longevity News
In response I found a local service offering whole body cryotherapy (WBC) and took up the monthly membership fee which included a weekly WBC. I have had 4 cooled to about -140 degrees Celsius for 3 minutes (although the average temperature may be higher than the final minute -140 C).
I must report that I feel fantastic. I have been doing the DAV protocol (see link at end) at the same time, but either individually or cumulatively they are really making me feel good.
After a WBC session I am positively near manic levels of happy. Endorphins rushing and cortisol levels through the floor. Highly recommended.
DAV:
My DAV* Therapy begins! *Doxycycline, Azithromycin and Vitamin C - General - Rapamycin Longevity News
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Neo
#670
Could I wear an N95 mask when doing this, do you know?
