Speaking of the spectrum, more specifically of fixation and obsession with the details, I remember that p-values are the known subject of some controversy. They are values to be used in the right context and with judiciousness. On the other hand, they constitute a numerical, hence objective benchmark.
As I see it, the views of Dr. Bart and Paul can be reconciled, statistical tools are necessary to examine the data with objectivity, and personal interpretation should govern the end results of the numerical analysis.

The American Statistical Association’s (ASA) Statement:

In 2016, the ASA issued a statement on p-values, emphasizing the following:

  • P-values cannot measure the size of an effect or the importance of a result.
  • P-values do not measure the probability that the studied hypothesis is true.
  • Scientific conclusions and business or policy decisions should not be based only on whether a p-value passes a specific threshold.
  • Proper inference requires full reporting and transparency. 1

[

  1. s4be.cochrane.org
    ](What is data dredging? - Students 4 Best Evidence)


s4be.cochrane.org

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I don’t think Mike’s on the spectrum, just really loves data, and discovery. He’s seems to be into ancient aliens and artifacts as well.

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Interesting… watched… the stone tuner… C-D-F
… woo… woo… is how it sounds… literally. Lol

I have had my fun with studying mysticism too.

Fun.

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No way he was on it for 5 years?

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i would bet Johnson was taking more rapa than we are? That is 5-7mg once a week.

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There is more than just p value as a disagreement about the appropriateness of using the rapamycin survey to draw any meaningful conclusions from.

In experimental design there are many facets as to what makes a study useful long before we get to the statistical analysis

Consider setting up a study on whether rapamycin causes infections.
What is our null hypothesis? Intermittent doses of rapamycin in healthy individuals does not cause an increase in infections compared to a placebo
1 - we cannot measure the entire population, so the sample group and size are very important
Are we studying kidney transplant patients with suppressed immune systems?, healthy individuals?, older groups?, if so, how many comorbidities are allowed in our sample? How are we defining a “healthy individual?” Sample size is also important as it will improve the quality of our statistics. We don’t know much of this about the survey group.
2- What are we measuring? First we need good baseline data on the health and bloodwork of our sample group especially their immune health. We also need a good definition of what an infection looks like. Are we actually taking bloodwork to determine this or just self reporting as the survey does. Again, no knowledge of this from this survey.
3- the study also needs to be blinded. Think about the people in the survey - all were advised before taking rapamycin that they may be more susceptible to infections. People are very much influenced by their thinking and the likelihood that those taking the survey had a psychosomatic response was quite high because they “knew” that rapamycin causes more infections. Likely higher than the normal 30% placebo effect.
4 - What is the dosing? Weekly? one size fits all or based on body weight and or sex? Is the blood level of rapa studied as to how high the peak value is and how long it takes in each individual to clear the system before the next dose. No knowledge of this data in the survey.

These are just a few examples of what we would need. For all these reasons, the rapamycin survey was junk science and not meaningful at all - in fact, I would argue could be harmful. Being certain of something that is not true is worse than being ignorant and open to any possibility.

The Doc argues that we should be cautious and my view is that in the absence of good scientific studies the caution we take should be in the form of measuring ourselves frequently and graphing the data (most docs never do this). Reviewing lab results and just looking for what may be “out of range” is not very good science when you are evaluating a drug like rapamycin. You need to look for trends and correlations.

Over caution can hurt and kill you. My mothers doc thought she should be protected against osteoporsis so gave her an experimental drug which cause osteonecrosis of the jaw - a very painful experience resulting in removal of part of her jaw.
Later she had uterine cancer. After a successful hysterectomy which surgeon said got all of the cancer, doc said out of precaution, lets treat that area with radiation - she died 6 months later from radiation that seared all her internal organs together but she was cancer free!!

And for the record, I’ve been taking rapamycin for 5 years at 10 mg every 10 days - measured levels after 2 hours. Not once did I have an infection. Had a surgery with 6 different incisions. And I mountain bike 2-3 times a week during which I often get cuts or scratches. But that should not matter for your decision.

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:100:

Well, maybe 95 :joy:

Who in the hell starts a survey with a question like this???

And then there’s this, from the survey ‘paper’:

A total of 7 conditions were significantly different between non-users and rapamycin users.

Yeah, out of a about 50 conditions. And he didn’t even includes ones I would have voted for: ‘I feel colder’ and ‘I have increased ankle edema’.

Anyway, this looks A LOT like Wasinkian p-hacking.

But I would like to hear a real statistician chime in as whether one could even consider applying statistical analysis to such a dataset.

I know, every time Kaeberlein brings this survey up, he usually prefaces his remarks by saying, in effect, ‘The quality of this evidence is sh^t.’, but then he goes on to quote from it extensively, adding an air of authoritativeness where there shouldn’t be any.

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Say it louder for the people in the back :100:

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you can apply statistics to any data set. But the point of my post was that before you do that, you need to design the experiment properly. A statistical analysis of a bad experiment is worse than useless but very common

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He just published a blog post about what has seemed to move bio markers in positive directions for him (and a little more about why he stopped rapamycin)

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I am not impressed… Lol

He states: metabolic side-effects observed in my lab results (including increased cholesterol, blood sugar and RHR); yes, but with other longevity benefits … these are non-issues.

Showing age increase in 2 biological tests.

I can show age reduction in the biological tests GlycanAge and TruMe over the past 3.5 years.

Again, just rapamycin alone… could do more than his entire blueprint regiment.

He might discover that.

And, as Matt Kaeberlein says… how do you know he is trustworthy. He has an ego… and seems to be doing a lot of PR and selling. Not exactly an altruistic person… regardless of his saying he is doing all this work for the masses.

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Nothing new it’s the same paper he’s already tweeted about and that has already been discussed here.

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These are contradictory statements.

The “doc” (I am guessing that’s a reference to me) argues that we have to be cautious with rapamycin because there is anecdotal evidence of skin infections and then you gave an example where another doctor that did the OPPOSITE of being cautious and gave a experimental drug that caused a terrible consequence. That doctor was NOT being OVERCAUTIOUS he was careless as he clearly violated the “do not harm” rule.

Rapamycin is an “experimental” drug when it comes to longevity and your anecdote only proves my point. We are yet to elucidate potential side effects of using rapa. Until we have more clinical data from human rapa intervention study we can only guess what the risk vs benefit ratio truly is.

BTW, FDA became aware of the rare side effect of jaw osteonecrosis with bisphosphonates in a process called Post-Marketing Surveillance - which basically collects… anecdotal evidence collected from patients… so out of all people, given your experience, you should not discount anecdotal evidence.

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how do you know he is trustworthy. He has an ego… and seems to be doing a lot of PR and selling.

Exactly. Every ad that pops up on YouTube for me is Bryan Johnson pushing his supplements (I’m actually thankful that something finally motivated me to get ad-free YouTube premium).

Also, talk about getting a lot of mileage out of a preprint. What if the paper ends up unpublished or in some garbage journal? Just the fact that ketamine was classified as a geroantagonist tells me all I need to know—that the results are highly contextual and possibly have zero biological significance.

Much of my early twenties were focused on trying as many psychoactive drugs as possible, and I tried my fair share of ketamine. I also used lots of other drugs in this class (NMDA receptor antagonists)—shout out methoxetamine, which is the greatest psychoactive drug ever imo, and might be the greatest antidepressant to boot (if used responsibly, which is a big if). I’ve tried some (things like 3-MeO-PCPr) made in academic labs researching the pharmacology that only a few people on earth have ever tried.

I mention all this because despite the sentimental weakness that I have for these substances, I would bet money that for healthy individuals their chronic use would be pro-aging. They are known to cause bladder cystitis, and the mechanism is thought to involve pro-inflammatory cytokine signaling. I had lingering bladder issues for years, which I attribute to all the methoxetamine I consumed (perhaps coincidence, but after a year of rapamycin, my bladder feels like it’s 18 again).

Furthermore, these drugs activate the sympathetic nervous system (which is why they are valuable anesthetics—many other anesthetics don’t preserve spontaneous breathing), and increases in HR and BP aren’t desirable traits for longevity. They also activate mTOR in the brain fwiw, and partially phenocopy schizophrenia (in animals they are used to model this psychiatric disease) so things like delusions, disruptions in working memory, etc. Also, cognitive deficits and brain abnormalities on MRI (although Chinese paper) in chronic users, and abnormal external and internal neuronal morphology after exposure. Anecdotal, but when using them often I had constant aches and pains—essentially frailty, which we know is a symptom of aging.

Anyways, maybe ketamine act as a geroretardant in depression, which can cause inflammation and stress, both of which are known to promote aging. And it can promote neural and behavioral plasticity (certainly no nootropics or peptides come remotely close to ketamine in this regard), which are youthful traits. So perhaps with sparse, intermittent usage, it could be beneficial. But on the whole, I think it’s extremely misleading to say that ketamine slows biological aging.

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Possibly this is the ketamine study, as its affiliated with TruDiagnostic (as is the one BJ is referencing): https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.09.10.24313258v1.full

this study looked at the changes in non-epigenetic measures, DNA methylation levels, immune cell composition, and biological age based on various epigenetic biomarkers of aging, of 20 participants at baseline and after completion of a 2-3 week treatment course of 0.5 mg/kg ketamine infusions in individuals with MDD or PTSD. As expected, depression and PTSD scores decreased in participants following ketamine infusion treatments as measured by the PHQ-9 and PCL-5. We observed a reduction in epigenetic age in the OMICmAge, GrimAge V2, and PhenoAge biomarkers. In order to better understand the changes in epigenetic age, we also looked at the underlying levels of various Epigenetic Biomarker Proxies (EBPs) and surrogate protein markers and found significant changes following ketamine treatment.

In summary, this study discovered that a 2-3 week treatment course of six ketamine infusions reduced PTSD and MDD scores, evaluated using the PCL-5 and PHQ-9. Ketamine also reduced biological age in study participants, particularly as indicated by PhenoAge, GrimAge, and OMICmAge. Our findings on altered epigenetic biomarker proxies and Marioni protein markers support their association with depression and trauma disorders, offering insights into ketamine’s clinical and epigenetic mechanisms. Additionally, we observed a decrease in CD4T memory cells, suggesting a link between ketamine and immune cell subsets, and how these may mediate a reduction in biological age. While our study supports ketamine’s role in alleviating depressive and PTSD symptoms and its potential mechanisms involving the sleep/wake cycle and neuroinflammation, further research is needed to clarify these epigenetic alterations and their contribution to ketamine’s antidepressant effects and its impact on biological age.

I guess I’ve just been out of the loop, because I didn’t realize people were now claiming to measure biological age. GrimAge is just a methylation clock, and it seems ridiculous to suggest we can reliably measure biological age based on that, especially in response to this sort of intervention. PhenoAge is biomarker based, which again seems ridiculous, given that we can alter many of these in clinically significant ways (without reversing biological age, presumably). OMICmAge is multi-omic, and according to ChatGPT, “Its validation is in the early stages.

Seems legit.

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From Grok:

Question:
in a drug development trial, a subject developed an adverse event of skin infections while on active drug which is known to suppress the immune system. The drug is dosed monthly, and the adverse event developed 10 days after the dose. The skin infections resolved after 20 days. The drug was not given for a month and no new skin infections developed. If the subject was rechallenged with the same dose of drug, and developed skin infections again, what is the statistical test to determine is he probability that the drug is associated with skin infections. More generally, if the drug was dosed on alternate months, how many times would development of skin infections over the next year of treatment bring the probability that the drug is associated with developing skin infections reach a statistical significance of < 0.05?

Answers:

To determine the association between the drug and the development of skin infections, we need to use a statistical test suited for repeated measures or matched pairs data since the same subject is involved in both conditions (with and without the drug). Here are the steps and considerations:

Statistical Test for Immediate Rechallenge

To determine the association between the drug and the development of skin infections, we need to use a statistical test suited for repeated measures or matched pairs data since the same subject is involved in both conditions (with and without the drug). Here are the steps and considerations:

Statistical Test for Immediate Rechallenge

McNemar's Test: This test is appropriate if you are comparing the occurrence of skin infections before and after the rechallenge in the same subject. You would set up a 2x2 contingency table:
    Cell A: Number of times skin infection occurs both times (not applicable here since no infections occurred without drug).
    Cell B: Number of times infection occurs only with drug (1).
    Cell C: Number of times infection occurs only without drug (0).
    Cell D: Number of times no infection occurs with or without drug (1 if no infection during the off-month).

With this setup, since you have only one subject and one event:
    Cell B = 1 (infection with drug)
    Cell D = 1 (no infection without drug)

McNemar's test statistic would be calculated as:
χ2=(B−C)2B+C=(1−0)21=1

With one degree of freedom, this would give a p-value of exactly 0.5 (not significant at 0.05 level), but this is with very limited data.

For Multiple Doses Over a Year
If the drug is dosed on alternate months, and we want to see how many times skin infections must occur to achieve statistical significance:

Binomial Test: Here, each month's outcome (infection or no infection) can be considered a Bernoulli trial where:
    p = probability of infection with drug (unknown, but we're testing if it's significantly greater than without drug)
    q = probability of no infection without drug (assumed to be 1 if no infection occurs in off months)

Let's say we observe infections in 'x' out of 'n' months where the drug is given:

    Null Hypothesis (H0): The drug does not increase the risk of infection (p = q).
    Alternative Hypothesis (Ha): The drug increases the risk of infection (p > q).

Since we have a baseline where no infections occur without the drug, we're essentially testing if the proportion of infections with the drug is significantly greater than zero.

    With 6 months of potential dosing in a year, if we observe infections in:
        3 or more out of these 6 months, using a binomial test (where success is an infection), the p-value would be below 0.05, considering the null hypothesis that the probability of infection is 0 without the drug. This calculation could be done in R or Python like this:
R

pbinom(2, 6, 0, lower.tail = FALSE) # This would yield a p-value less than 0.05 for 3 or more infections


    Exact number: With no infections in off months, observing 3 infections out of 6 doses gives a p-value of about 0.03125, which is just under 0.05.

Therefore, if skin infections occur in 3 or more of the 6 months the drug is administered over the next year, the probability that the drug is associated with developing skin infections would reach statistical significance at p < 0.05. Remember, this is under the assumption of zero infections during the months without the drug. If any infections occur during off months, you would need to adjust the null hypothesis probability accordingly.

I apologize that the formatting is lame, as I cannot get Grok to format properly., and I am not going to retype it. If you have Grok, copy the question and presumably get the full answer.

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I always wondered if Rapa dose BJ was taking was somewhat on the higher end of the dosing spectrum (he never expalined the science or PK behind it) and I somehow find Attia on /off cycling (on for 8 weeks and off for 5 weeks) not only appropriately conservative but also a biophysiologically sound approach.
Will be curious if Attia addresses some of althe published research (cited by BJ) in one of the AMAs?
Getting my Insulin, IGF, A1Cand Lipids checked next week.
Thanks everyone for the robust discussion!

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I personally dont see the argument for cycling off and on with weekly dosing. I think long periods between doses is better (with proper high doses)

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I dont either. However, we all know biology is non linear, highly probabilistic and a complex interplay of genetics and environment influencing intercrossing cascade of biochemical and molecular pathways.
Absent robust and sufficiently powered human trials (which may not happen in near future), we are either extrapolating the non human data or being conjectural based on individual experiences.
In that sense, Attia’s approach has been safest considering any downsides while trying to harness the benefits. There are quite a few known unknowns here to be untangled.
Attia is strongly data driven guy who is never hesitant to revisit and revise protocols as and when needed. (Actually so is BJ but he hardly ever discusses his rationale. He simply puts forth his conclusions…so its hard to examine how he gets to any conclusions)

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Whats your rationale behind dosing every 3 months and how did yiu settle on that dose?