#165

Circling back on the Chinese study which got everyone excited - Effective management of atherosclerosis progress and hyperlipidemia with nattokinase: A clinical study with 1,062 participants - PubMed

A criticism I am surprised I haven’t heard of this study is this - it just sounds totally implausible!

The idea that a study of this scale - tracking 1,062 people with CIMT measurements before and after 12 months of nattokinase use at standardized doses just happened without prior design and was later analyzed retrospectively is extremely suspect to me.

CIMT measurements are not routine clinical tests. They are typically done in controlled, prospective research settings. The idea that over 1,000 people just happened to get CIMT scans before and after taking nattokinase for a year is extremely improbable.

If this was truly a retrospective study, it would imply:

  1. Someone randomly ordered CIMT scans on 1,000+ people before they started nattokinase (why?).
  2. They then somehow received exactly 10,800 FU of nattokinase per day in a structured manner for 12 months.
  3. Finally, they just happened to undergo follow-up CIMT scans a year later, without knowing they were part of a study.

This defies common sense. The only way this dataset would genuinely exist is if it were part of a prospective, structured trial from the start - which contradicts their claim that it was a retrospective analysis.

Also, there’s massive potential for bias. The study was conducted by researchers affiliated with a nattokinase manufacturer (Sungen Bioscience). Industry-funded studies are often biased, but this is even worse - ot appears designed to sell nattokinase at a high dose.

Unfortunately, I believe this study is likely garbage. It reads like marketing disguised as science. The “retrospective” claim is implausible, as a dataset this structured could not exist without prior intent. And bias is extreme (company-affiliated researchers with financial interests in nattokinase).

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#166

I’m not arguing with you, I probably have less faith in the science than you, but CIMT is pretty common in the public here in the states. There’s a truck that travels around and checks a couple times a year. I’ve been there when there was a gymnasium full of people. Maybe in China they do it even more, don’t have any idea.

I’ve always thought it was a pretty inaccurate thing though too.

#167

I have a few patients who have had significantly abnormal CTCA’s - bordering on getting the Cardiologist to intervene - but no symptoms, so no indication in general - but 70% plus lesions and multiple of them. These folks are all getting optimal ApoB lowering, but also Nattokinase by this protocol. The main risk I see is excessive bleeding, and I’d not have someone who was on a Factor Xa inhibitor/Vitamin K Antagonist/Direct Thrombin Inhibitor on Nattokinase.

I’ll have a few that will get repeat CTCA at a year, and we’ll see if this minimum 60% plus regression is real (albeit one cannot compare the heart to the carotids, but there will be a relationship).

#168

I am not on it, but I see you recommend nattokinase for people at risk for CVD, which of course I have buckets of.

I’m on a daily aspirin, so is that a contraindication ?

#169

As I cannot speak on a public forum about your specific situation, but will put it out there in generalities.

To use nattokinase, I need to assess risk/benefit, as it is a speculative therapy.

For someone on a cath or CTCA has significant stenosis, I’d think the risk/benefit would be to do a year, monitor labs, and rescan in 12 months. For someone with scattered plaque, I think optimizing ApoB paired with Lp(a) has evidence for stabilizing these plaques which is the issue I’m most concerned about with small areas of plaque is rupture, as 70-75% of cardiac events are caused by minor lesions and not due to progressive stenosis.

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#170

I was just reading the article you cited, and it says in the Materials and Methods:

‘Participants were recommended to take NK as an alternative health treatment in an attempt to improve their cardiovascular health conditions or who voluntarily took NK as a health supplement to improve/maintain cardiovascular health. Before and 12 months after NK use, all participants had blood lipid levels tested and ultrasound was performed to examine the common carotid artery for atherosclerotic evidence.’

So patients at this place were recommended to take Nattokinase as part of their treatment. They were also monitored for Nattokinase use. So they were definitely not randomly ordered CIMT scans based on what the authors wrote.

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#171

So they were selectively recommending nattokinase, tracking its use, and performing CIMT scans before and after—yet still calling it ‘retrospective’? That sounds more like convenient framing than actual science.

#173

We will repeat ultrasound in May and I will revert

#174

Somewhere earlier on this thread I discuss my experience with Neprinol (positive) starting20 years ago. I also did some chelation with IV EDTA maybe 4 times during that period. I also take A LOT of supplements. I still take Neprinol for a month every year. Clean as a whistle.

#175

I have read all your posts very carefully and you are the one who encouraged my father and I to do this experiment. As far as I remember you conducted chelation by intravenous injections, but we do not have such an opportunity, and taking chelates orally as far as I understand practically has no effect. Therefore, at the moment we will limit ourselves to Neprinol and vitamin K2 from those substances that can affect blood vessels. In addition, my father takes many other vitamins and supplements, but they are not directly related to blood vessels.

#176

There are oral chelates that work depending on what metal you are trying to eliminate. If it’s lead then DMSA is a great oral chelator, much better than the IV EDTA, which can move it from other places in the body into the brain (bad). DMSA can actually take it from the brain.

Also very sensible to try Pectasol, which is oral and pretty good and safe though I have no real feeling for the amount being removed. Great for heart disease and cancer though too.

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#177

What brand do you buy for Pectasol?

#178

I bought the actual pectasol 1 lb tub of powder. With a subscription I thought it wasn’t too bad. I expected to take it 3 times a day for a month but did not achieve that. Morning works pretty well because you’re fasting. Before bed works well because I don’t eat after 7PM. During the day I couldn’t get it done right.

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#179

In the study they found an additive benefit with people on low dose aspirin.

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#180

Thank you Dano and thanks for posting!!!

#181

Are you supposed to take it only on empty stomach? I just ordered 1 lb bag to try. I thought I would either add it to my morning coffee or to my after coffee kefir smoothie with berries.

#182

It wants to bind to things, so it may get used up before it makes it to the bloodstream is my understanding. I take it on an empty stomach and wait half an hour before food. I wouldn’t know how many things in coffee might bind to it, but my AI friend says the acidity might hurt it too.

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#183

Does it mean you mix it in water? Is the taste very acidic?

#184

Yes, I mix with maybe a cup of water and chug. It’s not acidic, more like flour. Nothing really. I use a frother out of habit and because it’s right there, but you can stir.

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#185

If we are talking about MCP, I use a frother, too. It has a slightly sour taste to me. It clumps and the frother is necessary. I take in minimal liquid on an empty stomach with the main goal of getting it in my system. Even with the frother, I will need to use more water to get the remnants that cling to the glass. Because it will bind your other expensive supplements, you have to time it wisely.

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