17alpha-estradiol at rhesus monkey equivalent doses to the ITL trial causes fairly dramatic feminization: 30-38% testicular atrophy at 12 weeks of treatment. Human equivalent for 150lb human is ~4.5mg per day. I wonder how Bryan and others came up with their dosing regimen.
I suspect you could use estriol (or perhaps other estrogens and/or testosterone/LH/FSH) to titrate the dose appropriately. Basically do as much as possible before seeing testosterone/LH/FSH drop. This is similar to increasing dose of rapamycin until seeing other markers like lipids or insulin resistance deteriorate.
I also am not sure what the reasoning would be for anything other than daily dosing. It doesn’t seem like there’s a cumulative effect similar to rapamycin’s MTORC2 inhibition that you would risk with daily dosing.
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From the study in monkeys we should stay way lower than 11.5mg/day. My guess is until we see no increase in beta-estradiol:
“However, it should be noted that the dosing regimens employed in our monkey trials would scale to much higher human doses than have previously been tested. For reference, scaling the 0.20 and 0.30 mg/kg/day monkey doses to a 90 kg man, the current average mass for a man over 20 years of age in the United States, would result in daily dosing levels ranging from 11.5 to 17.3 mg/day, which is roughly 6–8 times higher than the aforementioned Phase 1 clinical trial in men”
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I’m not sure how they calculated this. Using standard conversion formulas you end up with ~4.5mg whether you start from mice dosing or rhesus dosing (as expected, for a 70kg man). I suspect this is an error in the paper.
jnorm
#208
However, both of our 17α-estradiol trial doses elicited significant feminization to include testicular atrophy, increased circulating estrogens, and suppressed circulating androgens and gonadotropins.
Perhaps it’s a semantic issue, but when you consider that exogenous testosterone does 3 of the 4 things they classify as feminizing, I think they shouldn’t cast their data in such a strong light.
Significant feminization to me would mean things like gynecomastia, altered facial and body hair, altered fat distribution, or feminized behavior.
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The article below says that pomegranate seed oil is 0.3% 17-α-estradiol.
0.3% of 1 kg would be 3 grams. The amount likely varies from sample to sample. Has a lot of other stuff in it too, per the article.
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Just wanting to report my findings with Ell-Cranell (250mcg/mL of 17 alpha estradiol).
Every day for 4 months 2.5ml in face and scalp (626mcg/day= 4,4mg/week). A possible confounder was Boron with 3 mg daily before the experiment and 3 mg during the first month of the experiment but the last 3 months without it.
Pre-experiment
Testosterone: 6,89 ng/mL
Free Testosterone:114,22pg/mL
Beta-estradiol:29,21 pg/mL
FSH: 3,71 mUI/mL
SHBG: 47,4nmol/L
GH: 0,2ng/mL
Androstendione Delta 4: 1,21 ng/mL
Post-experiment:
Testosterone: 6,27 ng/mL
Free Testosterone:82,58pg/mL
Beta-estradiol:18,9 pg/mL
FSH: 3,59 mUI/mL
SHBG: 64,5nmol/L
GH: 0,16ng/mL
Androstendione Delta 4: 0,68 ng/mL
I would conclude that these doses are super safe and we need to ramp up to at least 8 mg (Bryan dose).
No visible improvements in any blood biomarker. In fact it was a little bit worse but I changed so many things it’s not possible to draw any conclusion.
Any thoughts on my results/conclusions?
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Consider testing other estrogens as well. One of the researchers involved with the ITP thinks the positive effects are due to the eventual conversion to estriol (through some as of yet unknown pathway in male mice and humans). This is also why they tested another estriol precursor, 16alpha-hydroxiestradiol. I suspect serum levels will still be near undetectable for other estrogens, but worth verifying. DUTCH urine testing also measures other estrogens in urine, could pick up any changes.
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I had not heard of this, have you tried it?
Yes I actually plan to test with 17alpha-estradiol cream as well. I took a baseline DUTCH + serum estrogens. Won’t be as clean as @Viracocha as I do take enclomiphene and am testing an aromatase inhibitor. Still, I expect estriol to increase on the DUTCH and possibly serum.
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I was testing beta estradiol because of the macaque study where even if they only took alpha estradiol the monkeys were feminized and their beta estradiol was really high.
That test you mentioned sounds like a goldmine of data!!. I am going to look for this in Europe. Please, tell us what you learn!
Also, where do you buy the cream? To compare costs.
I purchased from apohealth.de. When I purchased I calculated it would cost $1300/year for 4.5mg/day. I plan to start at 500mcg per day and titrate up to 4.5mg looking for any side effects or feminization. Then I’ll test and titrate down as needed based on estrogen levels.
Some Chinese peptide suppliers also offer 17alpha-estradiol at a much more economical price, but require very large purchases. Check underground steroid forums for more info.
Yes makes sense to check estradiol, though ideally you don’t see an effect. My interpretation of the paper is that the researchers believe the increase in estradiol is driving the feminization and that the beneficial effects can be achieved without feminization via a lower dose. Ie, the increase in beta-estradiol is not responsible for the longevity effects. This is further evidenced by using the estriol precursor and seeing the same results in mice.
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By “very large” what are you talking about? How much?
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$720/100g
Post must be at least 20 characters
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Have you asked about samples? Look in the fine print for MOQ or samples or just contact and ask. All the API suppliers will ship a small sample if you tell them you need to test the product before placing a larger order.
Here is one example. 10g minimum, which is enough to last you 6 years. Get a sample, send it out for testing, proceed. Testing and shipping will be your biggest expenses, but you’re probably only out $400 or so for your multi-year supply.
Hubei Vanz doesn’t produce the best quality peptides, but that’s harder than powders. There are plenty of other options if you search the CAS.
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