Yeah, guess what. I did consider tadalafil, but am not leaning toward it, I’m leaning away from it. I am unconvinced of its benefits (outside of ED), and find possibly concerning side effect (there is are threads here dedicated to tadalafil, where these issues have been explored). I am awaiting further data. That said, I don’t think that others are wrong in taking it for possible pleiotropic benefits. It just for me it hasn’t reached a sufficient benefits/risks ratio.

And risk of taking a med has to be seen in the context of the risk of not taking it. If you suffer from a big liability, you might be willing to take a bigger risk to alleviate it. If I’m dying of cancer and conventional therapy can not help me, I would take the big risk of an experimental drug with many unknowns and dangers.

Each drug and each case must be evaluated on its own merits, as objectively as possible, without ideological biases such as “meds bad”, “nature always good” and so forth. If in opposing the naturalistc fallacy bias, you perceive me to be somehow biased in the opposite direction, then it is a perception I dispute. I am attempting to chart a course of action that is as evidence based as I can manage, with the risk balanced to the best of my ability. Perhaps your ability is superior, and if so, I can only congratulate you, while I continue on my inferior path, as sadly I must always be limited by my own judgement - in short, it rocks to be you!

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As long as you know the least amount of medication.
As new life-extension drugs are found almost daily, trying to take the least amount is theoretically plausible, but it is probably not practical.
As @Joseph has stated if we wait for proof it may too late, especially for us older folks.

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As far as pharmaceutical (generally prescription) drugs go, the rapamycin combo (with acarbose or metformin) meets the burden of evidence for me. Then I take a few vitamin/supplements (D&K, magnesium, omega 3, lithium…ok, a few more) for insurance to reach healthy levels with little risk. But at 70, I’m healthy, my blood markers, BP, Homa-IR, HsCRP, ApoB, sleep score, HRV, daily exercise monitor, DEXA, are all good. What should push me to add more pharmaceuticals? (beyond rapa). At this point I just don’t see it…I’ll work on doing even better or at least maintaining my high level of diet, exercise, sleep and positive mental state (more joy, more social engagement, more mental challenges to sharpen my mind and memory). I want to live longer because I really enjoy where I’m at. Sure, I want to be even more creative and productive and achieve more…show me a pharmaceutical that provides that with no downside and I’m in (something like coffee but better). As far as top 5 interventions, I like things like hiking the Pacific Crest Trail, Shinrin-Yoku (Forest Bathing), Onsens (nude, natural mountain hot springs), and beautiful, young women, if for no other reason than just looking at them is invigorating - for men of all ages - and I don’t see anything unnatural or creepy about that. If it brings back old memories or stimulates your hormones, great…of course we realize that (at my age anyway) it’s like looking at art, but no harm in that. And if women do the same thing, more power to them. Play pickle ball, ping pong, badminton, whatever. These are things that make me happy…all natural.
**Oh, and a couple of science links because, after all, this is RapaNews.

Effects of forest environment (Shinrin-yoku/Forest bathing) on health promotion and disease prevention

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9665958/

Shinrin-Yoku (Forest Bathing) and Nature Therapy: A State-of-the-Art Review

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580555/

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In regards to Inulin, this is response I got from Pendulum:

The observations attributed to akkermansia in this study were collected under artificial conditions which may not translate to humans. First, the inflammatory colitis was induced chemically in a rodent model that may not reliably relate to any human condition. A second extreme condition was then superimposed by largely eliminating the gut microbiome with broad-spectrum antibiotics prior to introducing akkermansia in excess in this setting. This severely limits the normal network of microbes within which akkermansia normally operates. These factors limit the interpretation of the data. And…perhaps most importantly, there are multiple other studies that suggest akkermansia delivers benefits in relation to colorectal cancer in mice. Thus, it is my assessment that this study has very little impact related to the use of our products in humans.

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If you’re going to quote me, please try to be somewhat accurate. Saying that 67% of interventions are non medication, leaves 33% as medicine. That’s hardly what I would consider “no medication”.

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LOL, so that’s what you now claim to have meant? I get it, you meant the goal should be 67% non-medication interventions! How could I have possibly not understood your meaning! Yep, you intentionally left “33%” for medication, when you said:

you meant that out of 9 interventions, everyone’s goal should be 6 non-medication, carefully leaving “33%” for medication! Now I get it!

I think it’s clear what’s going on here. I’m going to leave your quote without any further future commentary, as I’m worried that twisting yourself into an increasingly absurd logic pretzel is going to result in your breaking something, and that might necessitate a 33% drug assisted intervention. Peace!

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Hey guys, just a reminder to go easy on the people and hard on the science.

As Dr. Attia stated in the latest Physionic video, 80-90% of what will make you live longer comes down to sleep, nutrition and exercise. The other 10-20% comes down to meds and supplements.

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I don’t consider diet, exercise and sleep as interventions - just common sense. Most “supplements” are quite worthless IMO.

1 - Vit D
2- - SGLT
3- Rapamycin
4 - Follistatin gene therapy
5 - Plasma exchange

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Follistatin gene therapy seems a little unproven and risky to me. Did you actually do this? What did you think of it? Did you have to go to Honduras?

I saw that Brian Johnson did it…still not convinced. Lol

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Thanks for the reminder. My ignore list is getting too long.

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@KarlT Glad you have a sense of humor. And glad to have you here. :slight_smile:

Can you share some more detail about the plasma exchange you do? Type, frequency, things you noticed have improved?

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Liz Parrish, Dave Asprey have also done it as well as high profile athletes.
I suspect you are young. At 71 I am firmly in the grips of sarcopenia. Has been impossible to build muscle anymore and falling is my greatest concern. I see the risk of not doing it as far outweighing it.
I haven’t done it as I don’t have $25k. If the price drops in half I will be on a plane in 5 minutes.

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As of now for me:

1.melatonin
2.rapamycin
3.SGLT2 inhibitor
4.Sirt 6 activator
5.Statins/Telmisartan

Why do I feel like everyone sleeps ( pun intended) on melatonin? There don’t seem to be many tests, but as a novice I feel as comfortable taking 10mg of that at night to keep my longevity as anything

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Blockquote

I did read the entire thread. No one said this; it was suggested the main focus should be on lifestyle factors, which was why I responded to your post the way I did.

This makes it sound as if, after doing some superficial “research”, as sorry but in the end that is what we are doing here, one can make a well-informed decision about pleiotropic effects of drugs, interactions when resorting to polypharmacy etc.
I disagree with that notion, as there are countless things we don’t know yet. I found the presentation of Dr. Loh, arranged and posted by John Hemming, an eye opener with this regard. Don’t pin me down on the details as it has been a while since I watched it, but she explained among others that mTORc1 inhibition (as a result of Deptor association with mTORc1, that blocks mTORc1 and thus activates autophagy) can also actually at the same time result in cell growth and proliferation. Perhaps you were aware of this, but I surely wasn’t. And if anything her presentation made me realise how little we know at this time, also about the exact downstream effects of Rapa - let alone of countless other drugs discussed here. Dr. Loh also illustrated exactly that, and emphasised caution is warranted at this time.
The same for Matt Kaeberlein, and Brian Kennedy, who warned for unknown interactions and the likelihood of canceling out effects of (for example) Rapamycin, when combining interventions.
These scientists spent a good part of their life in-depth researching these molecules. Yet somehow based on some reading and posting, we would be able to make informed decisions combining 5-8+ meds?

Again, this is no criticism since I truly understand that sense of urgency. I also understand why this is an unpopular opinion. Perhaps if I were in a different age range I would be willing to role the dice, and combine 5-8+ meds, and hope I’m not actually cancelling out the effects of some of these drugs - or potentially worse. But not without the realisation, that frankly in the end we have no clue about the net effects.

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Sirt 6 activation is not often mentioned in this thread. May I ask how you approach sirt 6 activation?

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How would you detect an interaction between drugs, would you see any biomarkers becoming worse?

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sure. I take donotage’s product. I’ve taken it the last two years. I’ve read that some statins could potentially down regulate sirt 6 and I take simvastatin/ezetimibe, so I take it with my statins (I’m a longevity newbie, so I’m not sure, and im not sure how much simvastatin/ezetimibe would affect sirt6). In this study taking sirt 6 activator with statins seemed to mitigate a downfall of statin usage Statin suppresses sirtuin 6 through miR-495, increasing FoxO1-dependent hepatic gluconeogenesis - PMC

I’ve read fluvastatin could potentially enhance sirt 6 but its hard to get a hold of (its not sold on the Indian market according to Maulik I believe he said). I think fluvastatin is expensive in the US if you got someone to prescribe it as well, but maybe thats changed

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“In the end we have no clue”.

Round and round we go, with seemingly little forward motion, so I’ll attempt one LAST time to provide the grounds for going ahead with interventions, and then agree to disagree and leave it at that, unless novel arguments are put forward. Somehow you imagine that your anti-polypharmacy stance is novel or informative. I assure you that it has been thoroughly assesed and investigated - just because some of us reach a different decision, doesn’t mean we’re blissfully unaware of the issue. You are not telling us anything new in any of those points you just made, we just also, in addition, see a different side to it.

There are two fundamental insights that underpin the interventionist perspective.

  1. Non-intervention, is also an action. I had a neighbor who was drinking himself to death. He was a very talented man and it was a tragedy. Once after he came out from rehab, and was relapsing, he mentioned to me, in passing, that he stopped taking some recommended drug (Antabuse?), because, as he said “I don’t want long term side effects, who knows what they put in those drugs”. A year later he was dead. We are all dying and doing nothing doesn’t delay that process either. Not taking a drug(s) is a choice that also has consequences.

  2. Knowledge is not an end state, it is a continuum. “In the end we have no clue”. On one level this is a meaningless statement. Because we hardly have a clue about anything “in the end”. As Matt Kaeberlein said “food is just a very dirty drug”. Food=drug, we don’t have a clue “in the end”, if your standard is “in the end” meaning knowing everything about it - there’s nothing we know by that absurd standard (about food, drugs, the atoms that food, drugs and everything around us is composed of, space-time and so on down to infinity), so you too “in the end” don’t know if your non-action action of not taking a drug prolongs your health/life - do you know “in the end” that taking rapa is a negative? Yet you chose one course of action also based on not knowing “in the end”. On another level saying “In the end we don’t have a clue” is a diametrical opposite of the truth in a very profound way. Because the truth is: IN THE END ALL WE DO HAVE ARE CLUES. The exact opposite. We don’t have, and never will have perfect knowledge (“in the end”), we will only know more or know less - you don’t reach a state of perfect knowledge, absolute certainty, you are always on a continuum of knowing.

And this is the focus of the argument. We all operate, necessarily on imperfect information, including the scientists you mentioned. Spoiler alert, the polypharmacy-avoiding you, also make choices based NOT wisely on “no clue in the end” as you imagine, but like the rest of us, based exactly on clues. The difference is how many clues you weigh, how well you assess the plausibility, how risk tolerant you are, how lucky your guesses, how wise your choices, where your priorities lie. Your anti-polypharmacy stance is wise, risk averse, defeatist, silly, smart, sharp, trivially banal and shallow. It’s all of that simultaneously.

I THEREFORE FIND THIS ARGUMENT TIRESOME STUPID AND UNPRODUCTIVE.

Which is why I keep saying, let’s not try to bias our search for solutions with ideology - not the non-drug naturalistic fallacy, or the opposite. Drugs are not some special devil, it’s just a tool. Look at it coldly, without ideological blinders.

Let us, as we try on this site, focus on the clues, the reasoning, the new information, the old information in a new light. That’s productive. Upbraiding people about polypharmacy as if they never heard of it is unproductive - yes, and odds are that some of us know a heck of a lot more about that than those who bring it up. Risk is baked into the whole enterprise to begin with. When the astronauts were first entering a rocket to the moon how productive would it have been for you to rush out of the crowd and proclaim “STOP, this is extremely risky, never been done before, I personally never would!”. Yes, they know the risks, know of more risks, and chose the mission for a reason. Productive is to discuss the details of the mission, knowing the risk is always there. Get onboard, or remain in the observing crowd, but alerting to the risks is nothing but saying “don’t do it” as the countdown is starting. That’s one way no progress can unsafely be made, while we hang out in the trees trying to avoid the snakes hiding in the branches.

As a good palate cleanser, read the Richard Miller interview linked around this site, including by RapAdmin, wherein Miller addresses why drugs that work in aging mice are relevant to humans, ITP trials of drug combinations and other topics.

So let us focus on the data and strategies in an environment of limited and never perfect information, and abandon unproductive ideological arguments - now is the time to roll up one’s sleeves, and not fold one’s hands.

And this is hopefully the last time I have to address this topic. To the rare soul who has read through this entire novel - persistence is its own reward :grin:.

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That’s all you needed to say…the rest of it was just beating around the bush. Hope it made you feel better.

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