The tide turns on vo2max?

[L_H]

@Joseph_Lavelle

I’ve decided that accepting a slow decline into oblivion seems like more of what got me here.

I agree. My plan/hope is to maintain steady fitness rather than accept any decline. Knowing I’ll have to work harder to stand still.

[L_H]

@John_Hemming

In many ways much that I am sympathetic with @Dr.Bart 's thesis it does not matter that much. Exercise looks to be something which initially has major returns and then diminishing returns, but still positive returns. Then at an endurance point it can have negative returns. However, most people won’t put the effort in to get there.

I’m sure you’re right, i feel 90%+ of people don’t put in the effort. But personally I’m trying to decide whether to do more and I cant quite find the evidence to support it. I’m top 2% for vo2 max, for my age, mostly due to luck and genetics, and I’m not totally convinced more exercise wont be negative. I know quite a few extreme exercisers and they all seem to carry injuries.

[John_Hemming]

I would argue the additional effort does not produce adequate benefit, but i argue from a position of a greater dependence on chemistry.

[Joseph_Lavelle]

@John_Hemming I admit it’s a bet. But I’m going with the premise that my body knows how to do what I want it to do better than I can figure out and manage many pieces at a time. So I just have to figure out how to tell my body what I want. I’m betting on physical activity supported by me doing the diet composition and volume (in cycles supporting growth and retrenchment), sleep (combined with stress mgmt), sunshine (UV), forest bathing (NIR), etc.

[desertshores]

@Joseph_Lavelle

I’m betting on physical activity supported

Hi,
Admit it you enjoy, doing physical exercise more than most people.
I think that is because you are an endorphin hyperresponder.
Because the endorphin high is short lived you have to keep doing the same thing over and over again. Face it, you are an addict

"As you hit your stride, your body releases hormones called endorphins. Popular culture identifies these as the chemicals behind “runner’s high,” a short-lasting, deeply euphoric state following intense exercise."

[Joseph_Lavelle]

I can’t speak for other people but I do enjoy using my body. I’ve been active my entire life, more or less. My children are not that way. My wife is. I think it’s a learned behavior. I was always out playing with my friends or playing sports.

That said I believe the body holds the programming for many lifestyles, and that the active lifestyle is the one with the best healthspan outcomes. The question in my mind is where is the limit? What is too much, if there is a limit?

[desertshores]

@Joseph_Lavelle

The question in my mind is where is the limit?

This is simple for me. I have never been a believer in; “no pain, no gain”.
So, I only work out until the pain becomes a little uncomfortable. For me to get the endorphin effect that I got from running etc. when I was young, I would have to endure too much pre-pain. The older I get the less willing I am to do this.

[Joseph_Lavelle]

As you say I’m only the other end of that spectrum. I do feel the righteousness of pain for gain. I love it. But therein lies the danger. It’s a balancing act to get just a little bit stronger over time. Over a long time actually now that I’m older. If I go too hard or too fast (not enough recovery), I’ll get a set back and lose some progress. A big injury can cost me years of work.

On the other hand, aging is like gravity. Relentless. It takes continuous effort to avoid backsliding. It takes even more effort to move ahead. (Alice in wonderland?).

It’s no wonder people give up. I have already given up but I’m back on the horse.

[Bicep]

After taking a break because of injury or fieldwork, when I run I get tremendous itching around my mid section. I have to stop and scratch for awhile. I never knew what this was until they gave me morphine in the hospital. After I was in the explosion. Same exact reaction. Same itch. Endorphins hit me just like morphine. After a week or so of exercise it stops happening.

[RapAdmin]

It seems what we are really talking about when we get to the subject “How much is too much” regarding exercise, is in part, this:

Exercise as a hormetic stressor and its beneficial effects: on muscle strength; cardiovascular fitness; bone density and metabolic health during aging.

Physical Activity and Oxidative Stress in Aging

[Joseph_Lavelle]

Yes. This paper summarizes many foundational ideas about aging and exercise. It does NOT do a good job of describing another basic idea in physical fitness: progressive overload. This is the critically important feature that explains how to become capable of performing more physical activity that isn’t “too much” for health. As to whether more is better, I’m betting it is the right way to stimulate to body to function at its optimal level. (More like it did in my youth).

A person can become much more physically capable than they are right now if they:

• give themselves a long time (many years) to accomplish the goal of becoming much more physically fit
• provide nearly continuous stimulus to the body to adapt into a state of higher physical capacity (long breaks will erase a lot of progress)
• progress in cycles of pushing a LITTLE beyond the current capacity, followed by recovery, followed by another push beyond the newly higher capacity, followed by recovery, and so forth.
• avoiding pushing too hard, too far beyond current capacity which would result in needing too much recovery which would take so long as to lose the benefit of the hard effort or in an injury that takes even longer to recover from.

This is the idea. The devil is in the details. The key is having a long term perspective and being consistent. Another factor connecting this idea to healthspan is to avoid focusing on your favorite exercise or on exercise that provides the highest vo2max. Focus on being an athletic, youthful feeling human who can move easily, react to sudden changes, be strong, have endurance and resilience with good hand-eye coordination and balance.

What did I miss?

[Davin8r]

I’m still looking for more studies involving anti- and pro- oxidants prior to exercise on exercise adaptations. Since the term “anti-oxidant” is so grossly oversimplified when applied to specific compounds in supplements or food (i.e. many so-called “anti-oxidants” are actually weak pro-oxidants that have a hormetic effect to stimulate anti-oxidant defenses). We know that mega-dosing some common direct-acting antioxidants such as vitamin C will inhibit exercise adaptations, but what about hormetically-acting “anti-oxidants” (weak pro-oxidants) such as EGCG from green tea, or alpha-lipoic acid? Would taking these prior to exercise actually have additive effects on increasing positive adaptations? Seems worth exploring.

[Dr.Bart]

@Joseph_Lavelle

This is the idea. The devil is in the details. The key is having a long term perspective and being consistent. Another factor connecting this idea to healthspan is to avoid focusing on your favorite exercise or on exercise that provides the highest vo2max. Focus on being an athletic, youthful feeling human who can move easily, react to sudden changes, be strong, have endurance and resilience with good hand-eye coordination and balance.

What did I miss?

I wonder is some people here conflate the statement “the higher the VO2 max the better” with “the more exercise the better”, which is absolutely not the case. Raising VO2 max requires very well executed training, not running yourself down with mindless Zone 3 running or cycling.

However these days I diversify my training to maintain stability, flexibility, quickness, reaction time, balance and staying injury free while trying to maintain my VO2 max as high as possible in limited time that I have.

My training average per week breakdown is a follows:

1. 4 hours of cycling or running at slow Zone 2 pace.
2. 1 hour of cardio HIIT per week.
3. 1 hour of explosive work - racquetball, rocky trail runs or plyometrics.
4. 2 hours of weight training with a emphasis on core - posterior chain, back, abs, etc.
5. 1 hour of sauna/jacuzzi
6. 1 hour of yoga for flexibility, core and balance.
7. 1 hours (10 min a day) of foam rolling and stretching.

In addition, few endurance bike races and big hikes few times a year.

[Joseph_Lavelle]

That’s an impressive schedule of “exercise”. I’m going to be adding, gradually, to my far less impressive list.

Typical week right now

• 4 hrs resistance training with moderate weight (10-20 reps; 3-4 sets per session)
• 5 (1-7 really) hours zone 1-2 cardio on the bike
• 2 hours zone 0 walking (backwards for ½)
• 1.5 hours — mobility / core drills 15 minutes in AM

My only point about vo2max is that it is an imperfect measure of fitness in the context that I am pursuing. I could increase my vo2max by losing excess body fat (a good thing) or by letting my upper body muscle mass wither (a bad thing).

I do think more exercise is good as long as it stays within my current capacity to handle it (avoid injury) and recover from it quickly enough to avoid losing fitness. I will increase my capacity to handle more load so that over time I can do more and more.

Of course my family will want to have a say in how much of my free time I devote to this work. Time constraints no doubt becomes the main issue for anyone who is willing to do the work.

[L_H]

@Dr.Bart

I wonder is some people here conflate the statement “the higher the VO2 max the better” with “the more exercise the better”, which is absolutely not the case.

You make a good point. Lots of zone 2 can be a minimal injury risk way to max your vo2 max. I suspect the blue zone Sardinian shepherds have a pretty decent zone 2 minutes and vo2 max.

For most people getting to the top 99% probably involves something extra, just because of time constraints. My preferred zone 2 is all day hiking with a friend and I heartily recommend it. A fitness/social double whammy for longevity. Talking a lot and adding in little runs up hills can make sure your HR stays in zone 2.

I like your weekly schedule. Do you have any additional tips to prevent injury during the explosive work? I love tennis but it does carry injury risk (at least the way i play) so i try to do a lot of if strength and flexibility training.

[L_H]

@Joseph_Lavelle

My only point about vo2max is that it is an imperfect measure of fitness in the context that I am pursuing.

Interesting to compare with attia’s schedule.
Attia’s weekly fitness schedule ratios are roughly:
Stability: 1
Strength: 3
Zone 2 Aerobic Efficiency: 4
Zone 5 Anaerobic Performance: 0.5

[jakexb]

Well this is promising. I am in the top 25% for my age group but I was hoping to be higher. Good to see almost all the benefit is just being in the top 25%

[Joseph_Lavelle]

I didn’t add my max HR efforts which amount to 15 minutes per week. More than 15 minutes sets me back too much. I don’t actually stay at my max HR for 15 minutes but I hit it for 1 second and stay in the vicinity for 15 minutes 1x per week.

[Davin8r]

@L_H

Lots of zone 2 can be a minimal injury risk way to max your vo2 max

Zone 2 to “max your VO2max”? I wish it were that easy.

[Dr.Bart]

@L_H

Do you have any additional tips to prevent injury during the explosive work?

This is where strength training, stability, stretching, balance, core, technique etc. all come together. Obviously years of doing the certain sport helps as well.
The stress of running and resistance training strengthens the ligaments and muscles to protect the joins. Balance and stability makes the improper movement less likely to say tear the meniscus along with strong knee stabilizing muscles.
Strong core and good posture greatly reduced the back injuries with sudden movements and so on…

My preferred zone 2 is all day hiking with a friend and I heartily recommend it. A fitness/social double whammy for longevity

That’s only way I can hike, with company and in a gorgeous setting - like rim to rim in GC. Thankfully my wife is a good hiker.