#41

I am definitely not an advocate for this (below), but it seems that lower testosterone may be maximal benefit for long life (if not quality of life)…

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#42

Then again…

These results suggest novel metabolic pathways linked to male-specific lifespan extension and show that the male-specific metabolomic response to 17aE2 depends on the production of testicular hormones in adult life.

Male lifespan extension with 17‐α estradiol is linked to a sex‐specific metabolomic response modulated by gonadal hormones in mice - Garratt - 2018 - Aging Cell - Wiley Online Library

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#43

Reading through the paper, one of the hypothesis the authors make is the same as mine.

The apparent dependence of 17aE2 treatment responses on male gonadal hormones could occur if 17aE2 inhibits or protects against a downstream action of testosterone, which ultimately constrains the male-specific metabolomic response. As 17aE2 is a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor (Schriefers et al., 1991), one such mechanism might involve inhibition of testosterone’s conversion to dihydrotestosterone, which is a more potent binder of the AR. This could inhibit specific effects of testosterone on metabolism, which include protein anabolism and inhibition of urea cycling (Lam et al., 2017; Rossetti, Steiner & Gordon, 2017), and contribute to the observed elevation of amino acids and urea cycling. Under this hypothesis, inhibition AR expression in mice would be expected to inhibit 17aE2 responses, and other 5-alpha reductase inhibitors might induce similar effects to 17aE2.

Male lifespan extension with 17‐α estradiol is linked to a sex‐specific metabolomic response modulated by gonadal hormones in mice - Garratt - 2018 - Aging Cell - Wiley Online Library

But at the very least this establishes that testosterone is not bad for longevity at all.

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#44

Based on a mice study?

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#45

The ITP tested alfatradiol and it resulted in a 19% median lifespan extension in male mice (Longer lifespan in male mice treated with a weakly estrogenic agonist, an antioxidant, an α‐glucosidase inhibitor or a Nrf2‐inducer - Strong - 2016 - Aging Cell - Wiley Online Library).
The researchers of the study I was quoting (which includes Dr Miller himself) looked at the moa behind alfatradiol’s longevity effect and came up with two hypothesis, one of them being 5ar inhibition.

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#46

@Daph ultimately your husband (and you) will need to make the decision.
Just be wary of people directly linking TRT to a lower lifespan.
If your husband was in the normal or normal-high range and went on TRT, then yes I agree with those people.
Otherwise, I disagree 10000% if he is low, as going on TRT will hopefully just bring him in line for levels with all the people sayinv it shortens life, thus equalling an equivalent lifepsan :wink:
Lifespan is also just one factor in our lives. Low Testosterone is a horrible thing for men, especially accompanied with high estrogen…unless he doesnt care about being active, strong, fit, have vigor in and out of the bedroom.

I had extremely low [same as an 86 year old lady] levels many years ago and have been on TRT for 15 years and will be til my final days.

Punchline, choose overall health and make the best decision

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#47

I could only find the “stack” on their site for the pill form. If I may ask which one did you choose, Enclomiphene Citrate + Pregnanolone, or Enclomiphene Citrate + Pregnanolone?
I wonder what the liquid for tastes like?

#48

I agree that this finding is not all that convincing to me as a wholistic matter.

I wonder how this squares with the article we saw on another discussion about how valuable strength training is. Men who strength train live a LOT longer and that is damn hard to do with no T in one’s system.

And as @ksbradley noted, very low T is incredibly debilitating and cannot possibly be seen as anything but a hell of a brutal trade-off.

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#49

Here is a link for PureRawz. Hope it work for you. I prefer capsules but they sell tablets and liquid too.

The price is not all that bad.

https://purerawz.co/product/enclomiphene/

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#50

For the guys on TRT, your DHEA-S and Pregnenolone levels will most likely be lower so you might want to consider supplementing with them.

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#51

I also find it interesting there is a study out there showing low thyroid and another showing low IGF1 is good for lifespan, when we know a deficiency in all of these hormones would make someone feel awful.

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#52

An interesting idea. Do you take Pregnenolone? I guess I have to read up on it.

I am already taking an array of other things to raise T more naturally, including tongkat ali, DHEA, and a couple of other things.

#53

Yes I do take pregnenolone. I confirmed a very low level on a blood test but realized that taking it doesn’t raise it much, presumably since it immediately gets converted to downstream hormones (like DHEA, estradiol, and progesterone), so checking progesterone might be the best way to monitor Pregnenolone dosage according to some specialists. Progesterone seems to decline on TRT as well, so therefore Pregnenolone should theoretically fix it.

This is an area that really needs more research.

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#54

@RufusDawes

I meant you could get testosterone gel from India for about a dollar per day. But if you want the enclomiphene, Receptor Chem makes the real thing. Enclomiphene, though, is tricky. The dosing is hard to get right, and many users on reddit say they had a good experience at first but then it stopped working.

When I tried the stuff from Receptor Chem, I overdid it, taking 25 mg per day. My T shot up to 1100 from 200. That brought on a lot of side-effects, so I had to stop. Your protocol of 12 mg twice a week should be just right. I take the gel EOD, a dose that seems to limit sides.

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#55

Thanks for the detailed discussion on testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) for older men! The nuances between Enclomiphene Citrate and Clomid are fascinating, and it’s clear that finding the right balance can make a world of difference. It’s amazing how personalized these treatments can be. Your experiences and shared insights are invaluable for those navigating their own TRT journeys. Let’s keep the conversation going and continue exploring the best ways to optimize health and longevity for everyone!

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#56

I’m not sure there are studies showing any evidence that bringing someone with below threshold T up to normal levels reduces life span. There are studies that it can increase health span (more energy, higher bone density, better muscle synthesis).

I use Natesto–the gel delivered into the nostrils. I went that route as it closer mimics natural daily T fluctuations and supposedly doesn’t shut down the bodies natural T production. And from what I understand, it reduces the chance of other side effects.

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#57

What dose of Pergnenolone do you take? I get that its a personal matter but I have no point of reference whatsoever. Thanks.

#58

I take 100mg (50mg with breakfast and dinner). I make sure to take a micronized version so it’s more sustained. Some might say this is high but they’ve used up to 500mg in studies.

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#59

Here’s some interesting info on the nasal gel (Natesto):

(see the 13 minute 17 second mark)

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#60

That podcast is where I first heard about Natesto and started taking it soon after. I like it MUCH better than the cream I was previously using, but I have two main problems/concerns. One is that it keeps me awake if I use it too late in the day (so I don’t use it after 12pm), the other is the potential contamination w/microplastics and/or nanoplastics from the plastic container, which could in theory carry the particles directly from the nose into the brain through the olfactory nerve pathway, which bypasses the blood/brain barrier.

1 Like