tongMD
#41
To be fair, thinning also varies - there are other factors like cumulative sunlight exposure and genetics. Age is one factor of many in this but exploring other factors and whether “aging” is actually a significant part of the underlying cause is also important.
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Here’s an old study on Yerba Mate showing a 6% decrease in ApoB
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Here’s a study on Astaxanthin showing a 7.5% decrease in ApoB
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tongMD
#45
Salmon (astaxanthin), soluble fiber food source (similar to psyllium husk) & 100% cacao lowers apoB.
If you process citrus peels well, that is also a possibility.
Why take supplements unless they are highly compelling? One can do plenty with a better quality diet assuming safe food
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My decisionmaking is based around a number of approaches. There are some supplements that I think are compelling in the sense that there is good evidence that it achieves something positive. I am also doing my experimentation with gene expression where the response I get is dose dependent. I also take Psyllium husk and chia seeds and I know personally how the latter affect me.
Then there are supplements like copper where I am low on serum copper. I want to bring that up to improve my MCV.
Then there are supplements which seem to have a reasonably good case so I have a bi weekly multivitamin and take hyalluronic acid and collagen peptides.
Then come things like Astaxanthin where I ask first what is the harm and is there a reasonable probability that there is a benefit. When I started on this approach I did not know as much as I know now. I probably could rationalise my supplement stack and drop some of these now. However, I need to progress with my full protocol for a while then drop things out in case there is some key element that comes from one of these. I know that the current protocol is having some really positive effects. However, I think I know what the key parts are.
I don’t think it is that easy with diet to balance out nutrients whilst also limiting calorific intake.
I know that menaquinone-7 has particularly energetic effects. I can get that from natto (not that I have tried this) or various types of cheese, but then I have to eat a lot of cheese. I like cheese, but it is energy dense. Also when taken as a supplement I know when I am taking it.
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tongMD
#47
I mean compelling as in minimal potential for drug interactions, potential benefit to cost, quality control, safety profile, etc. The focus on a potential small benefit over likely harm is generally a bad idea. Trading one potential small benefit for one known small harm (i.e. toxic heavy metals in your supplements - which can be quite common) is almost always a bad decision.
Inappropriate polypharmacy is common. Athletes have taken supplements tainted with steroids or other banned ingredients - not uncommon. Herb-drug interactions aren’t uncommon. Albeit very rare, people have died from a “kitchen sink” approach to “natural” herbal extracts.
Usually, a chemical compound (or its derivative) that really has a potentially strong medical benefit eventually becomes a pharmaceutical rather than a supplement. You’re picking among the ones that didn’t make the cut and haven’t gone through safety trials in humans - so one should be extra cautious in that any “supplement” that is beyond what one can reasonably consume via diet in a subpopulation that has longitudinal studies should be considered to have a potential for higher probability than a minimal basal rate for safety issues. And that’s assuming “perfect” quality control.
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I have substantially improved my health clearly as a consequence of a wide range of supplements. I would happily agree with you that there can be some really bad quality control and I did purchase some NMN which I later found had no NMN in it.
However, the alternative is not particularly good.
AIUI the US rules are basically that items which are normally part of food and are GRAS are not subject to medical regulation.
The UK comes close to that, but things like Melatonin that are over the counter in the USA have to be imported.
I would like 25OHD to be more readily available, but it isn’t that difficult to get hold of it.
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tongMD
#49
Did you do extensive crossover trials to prove that is the case? One excellent drug is called “placebo”. People who tend to take a lot of supplements also tend to do healthy things. It is easy to attribute health to supplements rather than placebo and proven interventions. You could be observing a health benefit but end up with long-term harm that is not apparent.
One small known harm in many supplements, particularly herbs, is toxic heavy metals in supplements - which can be quite common - so I’m not trying to be alarmist but as practical as possible here. It’s clear that the statistics aren’t as favorable as generally thought by the average layman.
As an example, psyllium husk supplements that you take - excessive amounts of lead in 5 out of 8 brands: Psyllium Fiber Supplements Review & Top Pick - ConsumerLab.com
Roughly ~60% chance of known proven harm in the long run for just the first one of your picks.
Again, trading one potential small benefit for one known small harm is generally poor decision-making and we should be as rigorous as possible due to the potential for harm from a natural bias towards interventionism. Especially if one does not have extensive knowledge in the area. Illusory knowledge is often the most dangerous.
Even if one is a deep expert, clinical trials done by deep experts have horrendous base success rates. If anything, one should temper the claims of potential benefits in consideration of the basal rate.
I do take very targeted supplements myself. But I’m very wary via constant review in regards to the potential benefits vs potential risk in any “supplements”. Foods as well, but to a lesser extent because there are better heuristics that apply and both the USDA & FDA actually have much more authority to regulate safety as opposed to a wild west in supplements.
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I think this is an area where we have different views. I am pleased and quite surprised by my outcomes. I do not think this is a placebo effect. I do vary what i do frequently and measure the results.
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FWIW: American military personnel stationed in the UK or ECU can import directly from Amazon to their APO address. This bypasses customs. You can usually make the acquaintance of an American serviceman at your local watering hole. 
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tongMD
#52
It’s not really a matter of different views with regard to the placebo effect unless you don’t believe in a core principle of the scientific process (I’m presuming this is not the case). Nobody can make a rigorous scientific claim without controlling for known variables. I can’t rule a benefit out, but I have experienced many times when plenty of smart career scientists were overly enthusiastic about open-label trials when the effect is attributed to placebo later on when scientific rigor was applied. More measurements aren’t necessarily better.
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Livin
#53
I take 500mg of niacin daily to reduce liver fat and keep tg nice and low. I had a washout period and retested tg and it went up then took another test after daily 500mg niacin and TG dropped back down with tg/hdl ratio of less than 2 which is the threshold for metabolic syndrome. I am convinced niacin helps with the lipid disregulation induced by rapamycin. Also apparently reduces apo-b according to this paper. Peter Attia stated that everyone should aim for 5th percentile apo-b if one is to win the centenarian olympics which is a crazy low apo-b of around 10-20. Niacin will get you part of the way there but probably not going to get you to the 5th percentile without a statin. I am now at the 20th percentile of apo-b with 500mg niacin dose and 0 coronary calcium score. Hopefully it stays that way
Effect of niacin on triglyceride-rich lipoprotein apolipoprotein B-48 kinetics in statin-treated patients with type 2 diabetes - PubMed.
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elixir
#54
Which three are safe and which brand do they recommend? I’m not a member.
The Yerba brand of psyllium has the lowest lead according to that report
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I accept there is a placebo affect. I think a lot of this could be through the HPA axis which I think is not treated with enough importance.
In the end my top priority is the health of myself, my family and friends. That is my primary objective when I do my research. My patents will be published (automatically) later this year and there are people who are following some of my protocol other than friends and family.
It is not an RCT, but that does not mean there is no value from the information. However, I am entirely happy that we agree to disagree on this issue. You may rightly have more of a focus on “do no harm” than me. I accept, however, that biology is complex.
FYI, the lowest levels of lead were Yerba Prima psyllium husk followed by NOW brand and Organic India. They were below the allowed levels and safer than other brands which were not. So if you are going to get it, these three brands are probably better. I am a big NOW fan as they take their supplement production very seriously to avoid contamination.
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JuanDaw
#58
From post 20 by rivasp12
Rapamycin and risk of cardiovascular disease - #20 by rivasp12
“See article by cardiologist Joel Kahn MD to prevent and or reverse CAD with simple combination of gotu kola with pine bark extract . Scroll to page 37:”
My Clinical Practice
I spent seven years after medical school completing my training in interventional cardiology or using catheters to treat heart disease. Much of my practice involved inserting stents to prop open coronary arteries that were occluded with atherosclerotic plaque.But three weeks into my first job, I decided there was a better, more comprehensive approach. At that time, I read a study in a respected medical
journal focusing on atherosclerosis, which often leads to heart attacks and strokes. The study reported that atherosclerosis had been reversed using lifestyle and diet changes.2 Since then, I’ve combined interventional cardiology with a search for lifestyle and supplement-based methods to stabilize and reverse plaque buildup.
I was particularly impressed by a published study that reported on a combination of extracts of French > maritime pine bark and an herbal extract called Centella asiatica. When added to standard diet, exercise, and lifestyle counseling, these two plant extracts improved plaque stability and reduced size and numbers of arterial plaques. The study involved 50 patients with plaque in the carotid arteries, which supply blood to the brain, neck, and face. These patients had no history of cardiovascular events, and did not have diabetes or metabolic problems.1 Over the three-month study period, pine bark + Centella asiatica extracts reduced carotid artery plaque and lowered the number of plaques compared to a control group.
After these scientific findings were published, this pine bark-Centella extract combination became a routine part of my atherosclerosis reversal program.
The Evidence Mounts I grew more convinced of the effectiveness of this plant combination when a larger, longer-term study was published in 2017. 3 This time, 391 subjects were followed for four years. All had asymptomatic atherosclerosis of either the carotid artery or the femoral artery (which provides blood to the leg). Atherosclerotic lesions extended 50%-60% into the arteries in at least one location. Three treatment groups were formed. One was treated with extract of pine bark alone, another was treated with pine bark and Centella asiatica, and a third control group received no extracts. All groups received standard diet, exercise, and lifestyle counseling. The rate of plaque progression, measured by ultrasound, was significantly lower in both treatment groups than in the control group. The group that took the combination of the two extracts had the greatest reduction in progression of plaque thickness and length.
The extracts also had a favorable impact on cardiovascular outcomes as follows:
• The occurrence of angina, chest pain caused by reduced blood flow to the heart, was less
than 3% in the two extract groups, compared with 6.25% in control patients.
• The rate of heart attacks was significantly lower for the combination therapy.
• Events requiring hospital admission occurred in 16.4% of control subjects, 8.9% of subjects
using only French maritime pine bark extract, and just 3.3% of patients using the combination of pine bark and Centella extracts.
There is more. Just read the pdf.
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JuanDaw
#59
There is more in that thread. But you need time. It has 1366 posts. I am only at 490.
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LaraPo
#60
French pine bark extract is Pycnogenol? I used to regularly take it for general health.
