tananth
#264
Just a warning about an unexpected side-effect of taking 5-HTP as a sleep aid (my wife and I take 200mg before bedtime with melatonin and GABA):
My wife (age 71) was informed by her Doctor 4 weeks ago (early Aug 2024) that she probably had cancer (type Neuroendocrine Tumor) and there was a 50% chance is was already metastatic based on some Labs she had ordered after my wife complained about unexpected flushing in her face and chest. The followup CT scan of the abdomen (which we paid out of pocket the next day to avoid the Insurance approval delays) found nothing. Next the doctor tried ordering a PET/CT (with CU68-dotatide tracer), but the insurance company shot her down, so my wife was referred to an oncologist for advise. The oncologist got insurance to approve a CT scan of her chest which is scheduled for Oct 7. If they can’t find anything, they will again try to get approval for the PET/CT (the CU68 dotatate tracer has over 90% sensitivity for this type of cancer), or else do exploratory surgery of her digestive tract since this type of cancer often does not show up on CT scans.
BTW, the Lab tests were 24-hour Urine 5-HIAA levels of 165.3 mg (normal range 0-14.9 mg) and chromogranin-A (blood) level of 109.4 ng/mL (reference range 0-101 ng/mL). While waiting for the PET/CT scan to be scheduled I stumbled across this: False positive 5-HIAA following over-the-counter 5-HTP intake. According to this article just taking 100mg daily of 5-HTP is enough to trigger Urine 5-HIAA levels of 10x the upper limit of the normal range (and my wife was taking 200mg daily). But what about chromogranin-A, which is considered a reliable marker of many cancers, including neuroendocrine tumors, with levels proportional to total tumor size ? Well levels up to 2x the reference limit is possible as a side effect of long term essential hypertension and/or CKD (false positive results for chromogranin-A) : my wife’s BP has been around 150/80 for the last 2 years and her eGFR has been around 45 for the last 12 months.
So I tried telling my wife that there is good chance she doesn’t have cancer because she was taking 5-HTP and now she is mad at me for getting her to start taking the 5-HTP as a sleep aid 2 years ago! She won’t tell the doctor about my suspicion, since she wants to be sure she doesn’t have cancer and will get all the CT or PET scans they want to take, but I told her she should reconsider if they find nothing and suggest exploratory surgery.
7 Likes
tj_long
#265
Let’s hope for the best! Please let us know when you get the results.
1 Like
Alex
#266
Checking in with some good news.
I started taking magnesium glycinate about a month ago and it is working very well.
I can go to sleep well but wake up in the middle of the night often. This problem is greatly reduced and I am sleeping an hour or two more each night.
4 Likes
Alex
#267
More good news.
I was diagnosed with sleep apnea at the beginning of the year. Since that time I explored various solutions and decided on an oral appliance to move my lower jaw forward. Thus far it has helped a lot.
So my exhortation to you is that if you are having problems sleeping, consider whether you have sleep apnea and take action if you think you might.
2 Likes
Pender
#268
Did you buy your oral appliance online or get a custom one made by a dentist?
Alex
#269
I had one custom made. I tried using an off the shelf and it fit poorly, messed a lot with my bite.
The custom one is far better but they are expensive. Though not more expensive then a full set of CPAP gear. I luckily had insurance, so thus far the entire thing is costing me about $1,000.
1 Like
tananth
#271
My wife finally got her urine test redone (after all CT scans the insurance agreed to came back negative) and the urine test came back negative for 5-HIAA (after discontinuing the 5-HTP sleep supplement).
3 Likes
I’m glad everything turned out okay. It’s so ridiculous that our medical system is so broken that she had to go through all that without anyone asking about a simple over the counter supplement. This is why for the moment everyone has to be extra diligent and do their own research as you did
1 Like
nikney
#273
Taking hydroxyzine occasionally as an antihistamine increases the depth of sleep. Around 10mg half an hour before bedtime is well tolerated
sol
#274
Not at all my experience that hydroxyzine is well-tolerated.
For me, hydroxyzine not only did not produce good sleep, but left me feeling drugged the entire next day. I tried various doses and could not find one that helped me sleep and didn’t leave me feeling foggy and stupid the next day. Hydroxyzine elimination is 20-30 hours.
2 Likes
Rob01
#275
Hi all, just sharing some n=1 experience here. I tried 50 mg of trazodone initially and my sleep was horrible and I felt groggy the next day. I dropped down to 25 mg and bam all was good. I don’t have trouble to sleep 8 hours but was not getting good deep and REM as tracked by my Apple Watch. Combined I was getting on the order of 20% deep+REM. On 25 mg of trazodone I immediately (first night) got over the target of 33% deep+REM. It wasn’t unusual to get 40% deep+REM. After about a month of 25 mg I dropped back down to 20% so I upped the dose to 50 mg trazodone and bam I’m back. The summary here is I had to start with 25 mg and after about 1 month 50 mg was the right dose. I’ve been using 50 mg trazodone for about 2 months now and all seems stable on getting 33% + deep+REM.
Trazodone moved the needle on deep+REM but just to mention I also use:
- 100 mg Pregabalin (for 3+ years now due to back/neck pain from working on the computer all day. I used to wake with stiffness.) Very effective
- 4 Grams Glycine. It’s a minor aid but not great.
- 4 Grams Magnesium-Glycinate. It’s a minor aid but not great.
- 420 two hours before sleep from a vape. Very effective and helps me get to the relaxing mode. Either Indica or Sativa…Both work equally well for me. Two hours before sleep works best. If it’s too close to bed time it degrades my sleep.
As reported by the Apple Watch I typically fall asleep in 5 mins or so and if I wake at night to use the bathroom. I almost immediately fall back asleep.
This might be obvi but eating before sleep also degrades my sleep. I try and eat 4 hours before bed.
3 Likes
Tim
#277
Planks are perfect for this. A full-body exercise in one minute. Do as many as you can, or as many as you like. And the therapeutic benefits are tremendous.
I remember that you, Rapa, once had a back injury that you cured with PT. Planks could keep it from returning.
2 Likes
Not a supplement but the best thing I use to get to sleep quickly is using a 2 coil PEMF mat under my pillow, set at 5hz and a low magnetic field (1-5 mT)… it’s very effective for shutting off “computer brain” or quieting down the thinking so sleep can set in.
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I thought that was relatively uninformative. Also the “new” class of z drugs like Ambien is now 30 years old. It’s strange that they didn’t cover newer drugs like Belsomra/suverexant which have a completely different mechanism of action, as well as drugs that are very commonly prescribed off label for Sleep such as trazodone.
I had good luck with Belsomra at first, but like many drugs, the effect seems to have become attenuated fairly quickly, even with only occasional use. Never mind that insurance won’t cover it and it’s like $425 for a month supply!
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It is too soon to tell whether these results will translate to humans. “Human sleep architecture is still fairly different than a mouse, but we do have the same brain circuit that was studied here,” says Laura Lewis at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. “Some of these fundamental mechanisms are likely to apply to us as well.”
If sleeping pills do interfere with the brain’s ability to remove toxins during sleep, that means we must develop new sleep medications, says Nedergaard. Otherwise, we risk exacerbating sleep problems, potentially worsening brain health in the process.
Journal reference:
Cell DOI: 10.1016/j.cell.2024.11.027
6 Likes
Benzodiazepin and Z-drugs should really be used in last resort to treat insomnia, and not everyday. I always worder if drugs like pregabalin, trazodone, quetiapine or valproic acid are that better to sleep?
