Self-diagnosed ADHD?

Any thoughts on the drug Atomoxetine would be appreciated.

As I have grown older I feel I am becoming a victim of ADHD

Certainly not debilitating, but I feel I could accomplish more if

I didn’t exhibit some of the symptoms.

Why? Besides slowing down aging, we want to improve the quality of life.

As I have posted before, I am 81 yrs old and if they find me on the floor of the gym tomorrow, no big deal. My affairs and dependents are taken care of, so I am certainly willing to take risks that I wouldn’t recommend to other people, especially younger people.

So my first drug to try will be Atomoxetine.

Since it is even given to toddlers and is not a class II drug and has a low probability of addiction, this is where I will start.

The list of ADHD is long and varied depending on who you listen to.

Below are symptoms I have borrowed from various lists.

I am only listing symptoms that indicate a problem

I have ignored the ones I don’t have.

For example, I spend way too much time reading Rapamycin News and responding to posts. :smile:


“Atomoxetine is a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor and FDA-approved treatment for attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) in children, adolescents, and adults.”

If Atomoxetine prevents working memory loss in hyperactive rats"

If this works in the elderly, that would be great, as I think that is one of the first things to decline in the elderly brain.

Atomoxetine isn’t 1st line although it’s often combined with low-dose stimulants and guanfacine if you are “high functioning ADHD”. Stimulants are usually standard first line and will fix the problem safely in ~90% of patients not contraindicated. Don’t know why people are so against amphetamines and methylphenidates etc when under legitimate use. Low-dose meth is likely neuroprotective and used for TBI in trials.

ADHD self-diagnoses aren’t accurate but you should get evaluated because the prevalence is 5% or so. I have well-compensated ADHD. I just thought I was a chronic procrastinator for most things since childhood and I could focus super well on the stuff I enjoyed and geeked out - complex biochemistry and computational methods. You wouldn’t have expected me to have attention regulation issues just from looking at me.

I was mostly able to get by in college with only a few drops with my disorganized studying. I tend to really dig in depth on a whole bunch of topics, already knew most of the algorithms and operating systems at a young age, and developed some compensatory planning/organizational skills.

I also developed exam shortcuts without actually cheating (I use statistical methods to recreate the exam questions without any security breaches - you’d be surprised how lazy professors are), exercise with inadvertent self-medication when I had a bodybuilding phase with ephedrine (legal precursor to meth synergetic to caffeine) and caffeine, sleep, and diet (fish intake). I managed to get my GAD under control with my primary care but of course, he wasn’t looking for ADHD in someone with a perfect GPA and chalked it up to personality.

I didn’t realize how bad it was until I had to drop a boring class because I couldn’t bring myself to study on the last day before the midterm and I realized it was probably something real. Then later on my dad told me he had it and I looked it up. Sounds are super distracting for me to the point of irritation, people seem to think I’m autistic (I’m not on the spectrum, I have mastery of emotion recognition and empathic skills when I focus on it), and I’ve been in several car accidents many times more than expected for my age (luckily I always got semi-luxury SUVs with a Section 179 for heavy vehicles, so I never got injured), and I definitely “hyper-focus” often. At that point - I knew I had to see a psychiatrist.

The first psychiatrist was a bit skeptical because she thought I just wanted Adderall (even though I was totally fine with non-stimulants) because I was doing “too well academically for ADHD” until I finally pushed to get a full-blown neuropsychiatric exam proving it, then I moved to the best psychiatrists on the subject of “high functioning ADHD” because it ends up being pretty hard to find someone who can manage meds right. Further whole genome also supported it (polygenic).

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If you don’t have ADHD, it probably doesn’t make sense to take ADHD drugs. Literally, the only reason I take it is that all the statistics point to me living longer for an extra 12 healthy years. I would be really happy not to have ADHD and never have to take it to get to “normal”.

Titrating the optimal amount of neurotransmitters is the key. People tend to think more is better. But that’s not how complex adaptive systems like the brain works. Not only that, most physicians assume ADHD is just about dopamine and norepi. There’s also serotonin and cholinergic.

If you tried messing with serotonin levels with “normal brain chemistry” you’d see what I mean about why only getting to optimal is better than deficient or too much. Just look at primates without major depressive disorder taking SSRIs - our complex adaptative system messes up such a simplistic strategy. Things like Ritalin literally affect serotonin as well by producing a calming effect.

In addition, there is way too much research on people using it as a “study drug” and it doesn’t really actually improve academic grades. In fact, the only time my meds actually improved my grades is in medical school because there are a million “boring” associations with no rhyme or reason in the very basics that are pure memorization that I had to get through 12 hours a day. I’ve tried taking no meds a few times because I missed my prescription refills and I can tell you without meds, I doubt I would get through medical school with my ADHD brain chemistry because I would not be making a consistent studying effort for something that cannot be crammed in one night. I enjoy medicine and I enjoy ultra complex patients even more, but I don’t like studying the “boring” mind-numbing associations part.

It doesn’t matter how smart you think you are - unless you have a savant memory you wouldn’t remember everything quickly. And even if you were a savant you might not actually answer board questions correctly because they force you to think at least 3 steps instead of asking simple memory retrieval questions like in your AP Biology class.

Plus there are other issues with meds - you can risk psychosis and addiction without frequent psychiatrist monitoring. I assure you it’s not worth it unless you actually have a brain chemistry issue.

Curious what combination of drugs you’re taking; as you literally just described my entire life! I tried adderall about 20 years ago, but it didn’t help- mainly just made me feel like I was about to have a heart attack; as it caused my heart rate to go up.

When I was younger, my abilities were able to usually run cover for my inability to focus on that which didn’t capture my attention and my “deadlines are starting points” approach to everything. However, as I’ve gotten older, I’ve become far less functional. The combination of it getting incrementally worse and my brain not being nearly as sharp is making me maddeningly dysfunctional. My ability to excel despite myself has waned.

I could cram for almost anything at university- being “smart” has always been a blessing-curse, as it allows me to get away with too much. I knew which side of the room every professor started handing out the test (yes, I’m old!) and sat in the back corner of the far row to give me an extra minute of cramming. That extra minute legitimately saved me countless times.

Anything requiring massive memorization or a lot of tedious work to complete overwhelm and/or bore me and don’t get done. Back to university times- I did well, but also managed to be perhaps the only person in the history of my school to fail Spanish due to bored procrastination.

I would have already tried a psychedelic (favouring LSD from my research, or DMT), but I’ve never done illegal drugs and find it difficult to trust some rando dealer dude to be looking out for my best interests in terms of purity, contaminants, etc. Seems a “trip” level dose is required to (hopefully) make a change. Perhaps followed by microdosing.

I can get psilocybin in my area through a legal dispensary, but that doesn’t seem to be the right chemical for my needs. I’m thinking of going there, becoming a known customer/face and then I’ll ask about LSD. That’s my best bad idea so far!

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The first psychiatrist gave me Adderall IR 20 mg. But she didn’t see “high functioning ADHD” cases before - she never even saw any adult ADHD (by that I mean finding out you have it during adulthood) cases, just children. I learned my lesson. It was embarrassing - I was super anxious and my personality changed - my heart beat much crazier than my previous self-medication of ephedrine and caffeine, and I skipped important meetings for a week. I had to basically fight for my grade to get changed by explaining the issue. They didn’t believe me and thought I was lying to get my grade up until I got my neuropsych eval, doctor’s letter and ADA documentation.

I get psilocybin (I take 25 mg equivalent every 2 months) at a Canadian trusted brick and mortar for GAD. It’s still illegal but it’s not prosecuted there and it’s literally sold in the open with advertising. The reason I do this is I do not want to risk any tiny tiny chance of a felony. In addition, it’s hard to fake cap and stem if one knows how to identify fungi species with a microscope and assuming one is buying from the darknet and a heavily vouched seller. It’s unlikely the DEA or local police will camp out of my mailbox for 5g of shrooms but I just don’t want to even risk a tiny chance. This is not medical advice or any sort of recommendation or guide to do illicit activities. Just for informational purposes on my thought process and describing my personal experience.

Shrooms doesn’t do directly anything for my ADHD - it just helps indirectly, because it helps my GAD which affects my ADHD. I don’t touch LSD because of NBOMes. There is no solid evidence for microdosing.

For ADHD, Focalin XR (branded) 20 mg but slow titration up from 5 mg. One of the best psychiatrists in the world that money can buy and actually saw a lot of adult ADHD and “high functioning ADHD”. He would have added Guanfacine and atomoxetine if Focalin XR didn’t do the trick enough - it’s commonly used by him specifically in an off-label amount. EPA/DHA is clinically significant (and so are lifestyle modifications).

The rest of the supplement-based adjuvants including most nootropics are mostly BS or lack evidence or clinical significance for ADHD specifically. And I can tell you I’ve tried most of them anecdotally recommended for ADHD before I met him while using a crossover trial of 1, but if it works for you - that’s great just keep at what works. The only supplements I didn’t try is if there was a significant safety or drug-drug interaction.

Every “high-functioning ADHD” folk in my support group that I know who took Adderall then Focalin XR felt it was much calmer, but as you may know, it can be highly variable.

Talk to your psychiatrist and ask about it - this is not medical advice - just my own experience in my individual situation.

A lot of people here keep assuming generic is equivalent to branded or Indian is equivalent to US generic. It’s not. I’ve seen it way too many times. I understand it sucks to spend money and if you are financially challenged to an extent, it may make sense to go generic when there’s no better option like a manufacturer’s rebate or patient assistance program. And even then stick to the US-made generics. But especially in psychiatry - about 10%-20% of patients literally do much better when switching to branded from generic. Same dose, same supposed “80% bioequivalence” that “doesn’t matter”.

And I’m not just talking about the effects. There are other problems. There is an unpredictable amount of active ingredients. Potentially different “inactive ingredients” (i.e. different dyes could cause sensitivity/allergy). Pharmacies tend to purchase from a wide variety of generic manufacturers - whoever is the cheapest usually is Indian which can be rampant with fraud (especially the smaller generic manufacturers) or carcinogenic compounds. FDA can’t cross jurisdictions easily and they always announce inspections well before they come to inspect. That’s complete BS.

This can change month to month. They won’t notify you. You can get screwed over. Insurance companies don’t care. Here’s a prime example so you can see for yourself:

https://www.goodrx.com/concerta/certain-generics-are-no-longer-equivalent-to-brand-name-concerta

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@tongMD -

Outside of my expertise, but I have had patients come in on Modafinil for ADHD. Any experience or comments on that?

Also, one of the conferences I went to, sited studies in Europe using T3 (cytomel) for resistant depression. I know this is all in the controversial lane, but so is most of the concepts regarding “hormone optimization”. I think in the Ob/Gyn world we see variations of how some women can have great benefit from birth control pills (hormone optimization) to help decrease heavy and painful bleeding, improve acne and even improve PMDD. Improving diet, exercise and sleep habits could help more root causes, but that’s another world with most just wanting relief of their symptoms.

Desertshores, I’ll agree with you on the NootropicsExpert. And, it sounds like he’s reading from a script in a monotone voice. I don’t have any faith in him.

Phenibut? Potentially useful and potentially addictive. I used it a few times for sleep, but stopped when I realized I felt a need for it.

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David, as a non-medical person, but a hypothyroid person I can see the logic of using T3 (cytomel). With a hypothyroid condition everything the body does tend to slow down, including mood and energy. Even when TSH is within the standard normal range thyroid hormones may not be high enough for some people.

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@Pestodude - I appreciate the suggestion and just got through the short series. Thank you!

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This is a nice short video from Stanford on possible value for psychedelics in treatment of many areas of mental health that we struggle with. Obviously this is more Health span related vs. longevity.

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New, on this topic:

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Today I discovered a very fine rabbit hole to go down.

This guy has produced one of the most comprehensive user surveys of various nootropics I have ever seen.

Oddly very high on the beneficial nootropics ratings is weight lifting.

It took a deep dive to find a new nootropic that I am about to try. It is a flavonoid that has several brain benefits plus suppression of estrogen, which helps to produce lean muscle mass. It is 7,8-Dihydroxyflavone.
If you are interested, especially if you are older do a Google Scholar search of: 7,8-Dihydroxyflavone

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This certainly does look promising.

https://doi.org/10.1080/10408398.2020.1810625
Treatment with the flavonoid 7,8-Dihydroxyflavone: a promising strategy for a constellation of body and brain disorders

Flavonoids have long been known to exert benefits in various health problems. Among them, the BDNF mimetic 7,8-Dihydroxyflavone (7,8-DHF) is emerging as a potential treatment for a constellation of brain and body pathologies. During the past 10 years, more than 180 preclinical studies have explored the efficacy of 7,8-DHF in animal models of different pathologies. The current review intends to be an exhaustive survey of these studies.

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If you are looking to suppress estrogen isn’t it easier just to take Arimidex, a generic (and very inexpensive) aromatase inhibitor? In older men estrogen is usually converted from testosterone. Of course too much estrogen can cause belly fat and/or man boobs. It’s important to find out why. Also one needs to be mindful that men need estrogen too – a lack can cause bone issues.

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This is an interesting topic. I have been on Focalin XR 15 MG and five MG regular for the past 10 years. I suppose I would be classified as high-functioning ADHD. In the past few years I added 3 MG of Guanfacine, but I always thought that was more because my doc was concerned that the Focalin was increasing my blood pressure. Now that that is no longer an issue maybe the Guanfacine is less important.

But I have always worried about effects of long-term use of Focalin. It is a stimulant. I don’t notice it day to day but I’m sure I would if I were to stop taking it. Peter Attia seems to think that no drugs are appropriate, and he doesn’t prescribe them. Huberman seems to agree but he takes Alpha APC when he needs to concentrate. And a garlic supplement to counter negative side effects from the Alpha APC!

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Have you looked into modafinil? At one time it was being used, at least off label, for ADHD. I know @tongMD has some in depth experience with ADHD.

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This may have been posted here somewhere else, but good for this thread as well. 6mg Rapamycin and Ketamine

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I started researching piracetam, noopept, alpha-GPC, and modafinil. Then, I found this link about Alpha -GPC Experiences:

Alpha Gpc Experiences - Supplements - LONGECITY

(https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/53266-alpha-gpc-experiences/)

Reading through the link above I found another link within it about GPC(choline), Uridine, DHA and Brain Health:

If you have time and interest these two links may carry you down a few new rabbit holes. If you have good experiences with any of these nootropics, etc. please let us know.

Here are some reasonably good academic and consumer-friendly summaries on compounds that have been identified as potentially helping in maintaining brain function:

A good, more extensive list of things:

https://www.alzdiscovery.org/cognitive-vitality/researchers

and if you want a less technical overview:

https://www.alzdiscovery.org/cognitive-vitality

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I take Fisetin for brain function… Mayo clinic is in the process of a few studies on it too. They must think something is there. Blagosklonny has research Fisetin - Link: Anti-aging: senolytics or gerostatics (unconventional view) - PMC

Between rapamycin and Fisetin I am killing it on remembering… everything, people in the past… dreams from weeks ago… vocabulary is exploding again too. When I talk … I go unprepared knowing the words, people and things will drop in as they needed… thinking like a young person.

No longer preparing in my mind… stream of consciousness… it’s working.

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