#183

I can’t tell if you’re still going on about me, since that was how this topic was started but I agree there was a measles outbreak this year and every year of varying degree. Vaccinated and unvaccinated people got the disease. Also as a child I got measles, mumps and rubella, the diseases not the shots. It was not a problem, I’d say inconvenient. I don’t see the big issue since you are welcome to vaccinate yourself as often as you want. It would keep you very safe.

I’m not the only one that wants studies done on autism and vaccine adjuvants and vaccines in general. I know many have been done, maybe they missed something. Many people with phd’s agree vocally, and also MD’s are easy to find. They’re in the minority but throwing them off all the forums and banning them from media won’t help find the solution.

Are you an MD with a Phd? What gives you this remarkable certainty? I don’t post things because I’m trying to prove anything. I don’t care what you think. So why would I do that? I post things I think people may have missed and many here will miss qualified people talking about anti vax. Apparently convinced that’s just the way it’s supposed to be. There’s no cause.

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#184

WTF
Perhaps you live in an alternative universe. (Oh, I already know you think you are smarter than anyone who disagrees with you.)

BTW: I bet that there are fewer than 1% of the forum members that are anti-vax. Don’t confuse those who question the covid vaccine fiasco with anti-vaxxers.

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#185

We don’t agree that Japanese were aggressors in WWII? I was stating that as a plain commonly available uncontested fact.

#186

“Logical fallacies are relevant to logic not rhetoric. Hence…” This is an amazing statement. So pedantic and also wrong. Rhetoric: The Art of Persuasive Writing and Public Speaking | Harvard Online Course
Clearly rhetoric includes logical fallacies.

#187

Lets take actual definitions: (from an online dictionary)

Rhetoric:

“the art of effective or persuasive speaking or writing, especially the exploitation of figures of speech and other compositional techniques.”

“language designed to have a persuasive or impressive effect, but which is often regarded as lacking in sincerity or meaningful content.”

Logic:

“reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.”

Clearly the set of concepts considered to be Rhetoric may include some of the set of entities considered to be Logic

However, there are things which are Logic which are not Rhetoric and there are things that are Rhetoric which are not logic. On some definitions the sets are exclusive.

If we are to talk about “logic” we need to be pedantic.

Another way to look at the issue is Wikipedia

It is one of the three ancient arts of discourse (trivium) along with grammar and logic/dialectic.

However you wish to look at it Rhetoric and Logic are different things.

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#188

Apologies
Sorry, I misread your post. The Japanese were both aggressors to the U.S., Russia, and China.

#189

BTW I misread it as well. It was easy to misread the way it was worded.

#190

I just can’t get it. Why do we suddenly argue about rhetorics and logic on this site? Is it really that important for bigger issues we are all facing? I mean AGING and dying because of it.

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#191

I thought this was a particularly interesting episode of Huberman.

His guest, Dr Chis Palmer, went over many topics, such as how vitamin B12 may be helpful in curing certain depressive disorders.

I’m posting this here because I thought his discussion on vaccines might be of interest to some of you. I found his perspective to be both fair and balanced. Please note I am not familiar with his background or credentials.

He feels that vaccines might indeed trigger autism in a small subset of individuals because he believes inflammation can cause autism. However, he emphasized that these individuals were probably already in a compromised state of health, making them more susceptible to getting something, and the inflammation caused by the disease itself could be an even greater risk for those individuals than the vaccine.

If you care to see this vax discussion, it begins at 2:29

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#192

2:32:49

Now let’s go to autism. Is there any evidence, that inflammation can lead to autism? We have decades of evidence for this. We know that over the course of the last century, as there were kind of outbreaks, of bacterial or viral infection, in the population, we saw higher rates of neuro psychiatric, neuro developmental in the offspring of the pregnant women. So we’ve long known that and that evidence is pretty well established.

Huberman: For instance, forgive me, but the one that I’m aware of is that flu in pregnant mothers at the first to second trimester transition is correlated with statistically higher incidence of schizophrenia in the offspring. Do I have that right?

That’s correct, but then there was a rubella outbreak that resulted in much higher rates of autism in the offspring. Um I think that was in 1960s, ah and really decades of animal models. So they take mice, and they inject them with lipopolysaccharide which causes an inflammatory reaction and when they do this to pregnant mice, the mice that are born to those women, to those female mice are at much higher risk for showing signs of symptoms of what looks like a neuro developmental disorder.

My observation: The illness of the pregnant women caused neuro developmental disorder to the offspring; not vaccine to the mother, nor to the offspring.

If you inject a pregnant mouse with lipopolysaccharide, can that mouse still have a normal appearing mouse? Yes. But the probability that the offspring will have a neuro developmental, symptoms of a neuro developmental condition increase.

Same observation as above.

That is where so much of the autism research has been focused. In trying to understand this. Trying to what is happening with inflammation, how does that impact neuro development? We know that.

So now back to the question that you posed. Is there any possibility that vaccines can contribute to that process? **Do vaccines increase inflammation? **
> I think the answer to that is yes.

My observation. Pure speculative opinion; no stats cited, no attribution to any basis for the opinion.

Is there variation in inflammatory response between different people? I think the answer to that is yes.

Same observation as the foregoing.

Can some people have a hyper-exaggerated inflammatory response to a vaccine? I think the answer to that is yes.

Same. But this is true for all interventions. There are variations in responses, whether vaccines, or supplements.

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#193

Impressive! Thanks for providing more detail!!!

#194

Typical of most anti-anything arguments. No hard evidence just speculation and spoken confidently like it is a known fact, when it is not.

The beauty of speculative assumptions is that they have no resolution only circular logic that leads back to the speculations. It can’t be argued with, it can’t be supported and yet it becomes peoples reality.

Perception is reality. Echo chambers reinforce that perceived reality.

As Admiral Ackbar said “It’s a trap!”

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#195

I am sure autism was underreported in the past.
Looking back, I am sure that there were kids who would be diagnosed with autism today. Every class that I was in had at least one or two that we considered a little strange.
Autism was something I had never heard of then. It was used in psychiatric circles but was rarely, if ever, used by pediatricians or general practitioners.
I went to school in the 1940s and 50s.

1 Like