I have never seen any evidence of iron levels in the brain not dropping if ferritin levels drop a lot, and that doesn’t make sense to me. Do you have any references for this claim?

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Really good and valid question. I think the issue is little evidence of improvement with phlebotomy and even with chelation - the levels come down - but the neurodegeneration doesn’t seem to improve.

It is really difficult to find references on this - this one in the conclusion speaks to this a bit.

It looks as though you can slowly remove with chelation that crosses the BBB, but not seeing much showing this with phlebotomy. But unfortunately, once symptomatic - just like with joint involvement - doesn’t reverse with resolution of the iron levels.

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Thanks for the link to the paper. Here are some quotes from the paper:

" Aging processes lead to an increase in the amount of iron in brain tissue. This physiological process could compromise the iron homeostatic system [51], leading to an excess of iron that is not efficiently chelated by iron proteins."

“In agreement, recently, the treatment of four NF patients with the BBB permeable iron-chelator deferiprone (DFP) resulted in a positive clinical outcome [106]. In one case, the authors were able to revert symptoms after a few months of treatment, showing that the earlier the treatment was initiated, the better the results on disease progression were.”

“Given that the iron chelator does not modify the diseases suggests the noncausal role of iron in most neurodegenerative diseases, but it should be kept in mind that the iron accumulation process is very slow, and when it becomes evident, neuronal death has already occurred. Therefore, treatment with chelators is performed when the damage is already severe and difficult to recover. An alternative explanation for the limited success of chelation therapies can be ascribed to the involvement of multiple iron roles: iron assumes a crucial role not only in neurotransmitter synthesis, primarily dopamine, but also in synaptic plasticity. Disrupting concurrently these two pathways, it is not surprising that improvements are not observed, but rather cognitive deterioration occurs.”

What they say above suggests to me that chelation therapy doesn’t work in neurodegenerative diseases, not necessarily because the chelation therapy doesn’t reduce brain iron but because the damage resulting from the excess iron is already done and won’t be reversed by reducing iron levels. That said, I don’t see them claim that chelation therapy effectively removes brain iron, so they don’t rule out the possibility that difficulty in chelating iron from the brain is a problem. In fact, in the first quote above, they claim that excess brain iron may not be easily chelatd by iron proteins. What they mean by “iron proteins” here is not clear but checking reference 51 (PMID: 12208347) They appear to be talking about lipofuscin.

Lipofuscin is well known to accumulate in cells with aging and while lipofuscin is not inherently an iron containing material, it does bind to iron and the bound iron results in oxidative stress. Since lipofuscin is not easily removed by the body, perhaps when they refer to brain iron not being easily chelated they are talking about accumuluation of lipofuscin and the iron that gets bound to it. That would make senses to me. In that case, the lipofuscin accumulation probably depends in part on cumulative exposure to excess iron so people that have excessive iron for extended periods of time, may have increased levels of lipofuscin (and consequently iron bound to lipofuscin) in their brains, and this is not reversible by chelation but can merely be slowed down by chelation.

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"In brains of creatine-treated mice, there was a trend toward a reduction of reactive oxygen species and significantly lower accumulation of the “aging pigment” lipofuscin. "

Creatine might reduce lipofucin build up?

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30 year old paper but piracetam reverses hippocampal increases in lipofuscin caused bychronic alcohol and withdrawal in rats.

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From Ora Biomedical:

It confirms the “intuition” of many people here: lithium is bad at high doses, neutral at very low doses and great at some “low-medium” doses.

How does this translate to humans? :person_shrugging:

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Personally I am for around 50 microMolar, but that is in serum not in foodstuffs. Thinking about it this is about 1-5mg (I am on 2 at the moment).

In terms of food people eat 1-2kg per day. Hence it is perhaps a millionth of that by elemental mass. Lithiums molecular weight is about 7. So if we only use that then we are talking about around 1 microMolar or less.

However, this is not really that good a system of comparison. I think the negatives of ltihium come from when SLC13A2 and A3 get inhibited particularly in the kidneys.

This result may argue for a higher lithium dose, but personally I want to stay well clear of inhibiting SLC13A2 and SLC13A3.

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Maybe not neutral if we get a subjectively better state of mind. I find it takes the edge off. If I get a longevity benefit, that’s a bonus.

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It looks like there was just a new study that found no result for lithium in water supply reducing suicides
https://x.com/PloederlM/status/1830155781330587904

They seem to think it’s all because null results aren’t published so only the ones that find an effect get published

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Its good that they publish null results. I am myself not persuaded that the longevity dosage has a measureable mental effect. I keep it really low myself because lithium inhibits the SLC13 series of citrate transporters.

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Thanks. This is very concerning (about scientific publishing in general):

Meanwhile we have this just published Brazilian–Saudi–Canadian paper: Trace lithium levels in drinking water and risk of dementia: a systematic review (looks like a bad paper, they used mg instead of µg at some point in the paper for instance…)

We systematically reviewed five available studies, which reported associations between trace-Li in water and incidence or mortality from dementia. Association between trace-Li levels and a lower risk or mortality from dementia were observed at concentrations of Li in drinking water as low as 0.002 mg/L and 0.056 mg/L. Meanwhile, levels below 0.002 mg/L did not elicit this effect. Although three of the five studies found dementia protective properties of Li in both sexes, a single study including lower Li levels (0.002 mg/l) found such association only in women.

If this paper is correct and if the neuroprotective level is 0.002–0.056 mg/L, given that the average adult drinks about 3.2 L per day (2.7 for women and 3.7 for men), this means >0.006–0.18 mg of lithium per day?

[EDIT: I asked the author on Twitter, it turns out Switzerland has one of the lowest lithium concentrations in water. Could it explain the null result?

]

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Martin Plöderl’s comment on this review:

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Tell you what’s funny about this table of lithium water content by countries. Hungary has the highest level if lithium in their water… and also some of the very highest suicide rates in the world, a statistic that’s held for multiple decades. Whereas Switzerland and Italy which are toward the bottom of lithium water content are not known for high suicide rates. That’s why so many epi studies are garbage.

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Seems that empagliflozin reduces serum lithium by 70%, not 50%.

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@CronosTempi they would have to adjust for income and education and social freedom etc, which is very hard to do, which is why they normally just don’t compare across such different countries. If you try to adjust for all the differences you will just end up confirming your prior beliefs most likely since you will adjust until you get the result you expect.

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Open question:

  • There’s a growing body of evidence pointing to SGLT2 inhibitors being neuroprotective (longitudinal studies, animal models, and RCTs)
  • SGLT2 inhibitors significantly lower serum lithium levels
  • Some papers suggest that lithium, at levels as low as those found in tap water, might be neuroprotective

I can’t reconcile the above. I see a few possibilities:

  1. SGLT2i are not neuroprotective.
  2. Lithium is not neuroprotective.
  3. SGLT2i and lithium are both neuroprotective, but SGLT2i neuroprotection is so strong that it overcomes the lithium loss.
  4. SGLT2i lower serum lithium levels but serum lithiums do not matter for neuroprotection (maybe what matters is brain levels, or CSF, or absorption, or whatever)
  5. Lithium is neuroprotective but not at the levels seen in tap water so the addition of SGLT2i doesn’t change anything. On the other hand, someone taking a higher lithium dose should adjust it to continue to benefit from lithium’s neuroprotection.

Is there any other possibility? Or did I misunderstand something?

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It is a good question.

Lithium inhibits the cell wall citrate carriers at a higher level. That may help with mental illness and depression, but is both known to be potentially nephrotoxic and I would think also undermines the genome more generally. At the longevity dose lithium won’t have any material effect on citrate levels, but potentially inhibits GSK3 which is thought to be helpful.

Personally I am not attracted to any of the weight loss drugs because of my concern about their potential effects on lean mass. I could do with taking my fat mass down a bit, but I took my BMI from 35 to 22 without using weight loss drugs (although I think melatonin helps with this).

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Thanks for chiming in.

I don’t think you can qualify SGLT2i as “weight loss drugs”. From what I read, people who are not overweight don’t lose weight on it. I didn’t at least.

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There are other examples of interventions that are net positive despite having some negative consequences. Endurance exercise is an example: more likely to have AFib, artery calcification but overall it has a significant life extension benefit.

I take a low lithium dose (5mg lithium orotate)and a sglt2 inhibitor (dapag). I’ll keep watching for clarity on adjusting the lithium dose which doesn’t seem to have a strong effect on anything.

Let us know what you figure out….

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Can this be tested in worms at ora? I know weve already tested lithium and empa and cana. Cant we just test the same lithium dose that extended lifespan with cana and see if life effect is reduced?

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