#326

@Bettywhitetest,Joseph_Lavelle,desertshores

According to the Mayo Clinic, DHEA interacts in a negative manner with other supplements and drugs.

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#327

Did you test also LH and FSH? This would be essential to make a diagnosis for low T (primary vs. secondary hypogonadism). But since you were on high dose Clomiphene citrate for two months and it did not raise your T maybe your hypogonadism is primary, originates with a problem in the testicles as Clomiphene is effective only in secondary hypogonadism where hypothalamus or pituitary problems result in low testosterone levels because of insufficient stimulation of the Leydig cells in testes. It is usually associated with low or low-normal FSH and LH levels.
If you Clomiphene is real, you should see increase in FSH and LH that stimulate testes to produce more T. If your FSH and LH levels go up but T does not move, problem are testes. If it does not move FSH and LH it is with great probability not a real product.

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#328

I used real enclomiphene in liquid form. It appears subjectively to be helpful in gaining muscle mass, but nothing suggests to me that my testosterone has increased.

Before and after bloodwork also shows that testosterone and free testosterone are still decreasing.

However estradiol has increased, and DHEA has increased dramatically. I think this is as expected.

I conclude that my body may no longer have the ability to boost testosterone in response to enclomiphene. So if the enclomiphene is working, which it seems to be, it would be through different mechanisms. I could be getting higher production of other anabolic homones like IGF-1 and growth hormone.

#329

Thanks. Good info. I’ve been taking for so long now that any negative effect has been with me for years (but none that I can tell) I started this one on the advice of Joel Friel of Fast After 50 (cycling coach extraordinaire). He’s no scientist but I took his word for it many years ago.

I wouldn’t do the same again.

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#330

No, because I have taken the LH test before and it was in the normal range.
Also, the Tongkat Ali supplement when taken for ~30 days raised both my total and free testosterone levels.
I am not normally a fan of supplements like Tongkat Ali, but after Joe Rogan and Peter Attia said it works I decided to try it. I am going to try it again for a longer period.

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#331

Look my comment above. If enclompihene or clomiphene don’t raise your T (but raise LH and FSH) your low testosterone is primary hypogonadism or in other words your testicles are not able to produce more T.

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#332

That does not exclude primary hypogonadism, your tongkat ali result and clomiphene are very similar. Maybe that is maxium what your testicles are able to prroduce…

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#333

I’m not exactly sure tbh. I started rapa, lifting weights and changed my diet last year.

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#334

you may be using the wrong form of it, or maybe it was a fake/not good product. Try what @desertshores is using (Clomiphene citrate from India, which it is actually Clomid) and the results might surprise you. Just saying. @desertshores it doubled within month and now probably he’s north of 500. LOL will soon find out since he had a draw last couple days.

#335

Exactly. My point as well…

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#336

[quote=“scta123, post:331, topic:10009”]
clomiphene

I don’t agree with your assessment.
TongKat Ali increased my testosterone from 128 to 295 ng/dL in 30 days.
That is more than a double increase in T
Clomiphene actually reduced my T from 295 to 265 ng/dL.
That may be in the margin of error for the test.
I had all blood draws at 9 AM, which supposedly is near peak
The only reason that I stopped TongKat Ali was because I just had one bottle
and I previously ordered Clomiphene from India. Crazy me, I thought, wow if this over-the-counter stuff works this well the Clomiphene would work even better.
In any case, I am going to take Tongkat Ali for 60 days and see what happens.

4 Likes
#337

@CTStan

How do you know it was real enclomiphene, since it didn’t raise your T? I’ve used enclomiphene, also a liquid, from ReceptorChem in the UK and it worked too well. My T went from sub-200 to 1100, with all the gnarly side-effects.

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#338

The difference might be just noise.
But I never researched Tongkat Ali and effect on testicular production of T… it might have some direct stimulation or maybe even regenerate of Leydig cells in testicles.

I researched some more SERMs (selective estrogen receptor modulators) since my endocrinologist suggested Clomiphene to boost T, he proposed I take it weekly, 25-50mg (so your dose was really hight) but I decided not to do it since interferes with cholesterol production and I wanted to understand that some more. I also looked at enclomiphene and tamoxifen. My endocrinologist suggested I take it as a differential diagnosis and sometimes only a cycle of Clomiphene is needed to permanently boost T production (usually in younger men).
HCG is also used to maximize natural intra-testicular production of testosterone through direct stimulation of the Leydig cells.

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#339

"How do you know it was real enclomiphene, since it didn’t raise your T? "

Fair question:

  1. I vetted the company, including on trustpilot
  2. I felt comfortable with the integrity of the company based on their website. Look for yourself: Enclomiphene for Sale | 12.5 mg/ml | Alpha Star Labs
  3. Based on my subjective experience that it was working, I ordered a 2nd bottle.
  4. When USPS claimed the 2nd package was delivered but it wasn’t, I contacted the company and they immediately responded that they were expediting shipment of a replacement. A neighbor later dropped it off and so I cancelled the replacement. Again increasing my trust in the integrity of the company.
  5. My DHEA increased 5 fold! Way out of the normal range.
  6. My estradiol went up and my testosterone decreased, 100% consistent with my age (84) and with the explanation posted by @scta123. In other words, results were not what I wanted, but exactly as should be expected.
  7. I subjectively experience growth of muscle mass, feel like I’m bulking up. But I wont measure progress, if any, until the end of the contest.
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#340

I am now taking about 12.5 mg a day. I am looking for elevated, not massive increase.

#341

If my next 60-day trial of Tongkat Ali does not produce the results I want I will try Alpha Star Labs. Thanks for the info.

#342

@Alex

I’d take less, maybe 6 EOD. It’s easy to underestimate how effective the real stuff is. You can always increase the dosage after your next blood test.

Both @CTStan and @scta123 have a pretty good understanding of the chemical.

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#343

Just got tested after taking it for a few months and I am not really all that high, around mid 600s. But strangely my available T is still kind of low. Puzzling to me.

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#344

What is your SHBG? ______

#345

@Alex
I’d say 600 is pretty good. How old are you? What was your level before you started? Do you have any sides? From what I’ve read, enclomiphene is unpredictable and your body’s reaction to it is highly individualized. You could try taking more and see what happens. Good luck.

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