I’ve also heard that “pink noise” is beneficial for sleep quality.

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Honestly I think CBT for insomnia is most important, I have done the reverse CBT and it has been quite effective in making my sleep worse. :rofl:

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Yes - CBT-i is the most well proven therapy for insomnia.

Full un-paywalled article here: https://archive.ph/09fuG

I’ve got a Muse EEG headband They advertise it mostly as a meditation/biofeedback device but it can measure your EEG while sleeping too. I’ve used it a few time for sleeping but it has some issues keeping good electrodes connections so the data is rather noisy.

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What do you think the sleep impact has been? Or is it mostly to collect data - not to impact sleep?

You need to be awake for the biofeedback sessions. They have some sleeping aid features too but I have not tested them yet.
The biofeedback before sleeping did improve my low HRV though. From 20’s to 30’s and then the Eight Sleep Pod from 30’s to 40’s.

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I’m another Dreem user. I picked one up early on and used it regularly for three years. I had three devices altogether. It takes a lot of discipline to wear this type of device.

Did it work? I convinced myself that it did and my sleep improved to some degree. Quality deep sleep has been illusive for me but getting to sleep and getting 7+hrs has become the norm.

I’ve found the Apple “Brown Noise App” good for jet lag and I think it would be good for many who have trouble falling asleep. It also has alternative pink, white etc. I use the free version.

The NASA Power Nap recording sounds promising although I never nap.

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I tried it too & it made my sleep so much worse. If one’s problem is not sleeping at regular times or anxiety, I expect it helps. That isn’t my trouble & it did nothing helpful.

I’m reasonably sure there are a number of things that can cause bad sleep. If one fixes the underlying cause the symptom will improve. If not, nope.

The data on CBT-I shows a reduction in time spent in bed, but hardly any improvement in actual sleep duration. It thus is a bad treatment for insomnia since what an insomniac needs is more sleep, not necessarily less time in bed.

Sorry for the late response.
Unfortunately, I do not have recommendations in this area as I do not believe we have developed anything that can enhance sleep just yet. It might be coming , but I think a lot of sleep enhancing will come from sleep hygeine and these devices might be a result of potential placebo more so than true sleep enhancement, although I think opinions vary on this.

I decided to give some information on what the field knows about sleep and the hard part about studying sleep since I see a lot of misconceptions.
1). We do not understand what is actually sleeping. For example, there is the concept of local sleep. There have been significant developments over the past decade that show the brain can enter sleep like states on a local level. Lets take the cortex as an example. Cortical regions can display differences in sleep quality and sleep states that are dependent on prior activity. Stimulating one side of the cortex throughout wake, results in increased Sleep quality and quanity on the side that has been stimulated vs a side that was not stimulated. You also have scenario’s where a brain region can exhibit sleep-like activity while awake and vice versa. So, what I am trying to point out here is the question, what is actually sleeping? ( Good start on the topic
Local Sleep - PMC ) Fun fact, what is so interesting about sleep to me is that sleep arises, even if you lesion any part of the sleep/wake promoting process. What I mean is that, sleep occurs still regardless of location of lesion to brain region. Out of many acute traumatic brain injuries that have occurred clinically, sleep still occurs. SO this again makes one wonder what is truly sleeping?

  1. Sleep is governed by three processes: A homeostatic drive(typically denoted as Process S in sleep models), Circadian timing( denoted as process C in sleep models), and ultradian timing( this is neuron firing, but it far less talked about when it comes to sleep models). The main accepted view in the sleep realm is the two -process model(
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jsr.13598) , where Process C interacts with Process S to give us the phenomenon of sleep. Process C is responsible for the timing of sleep, while process S is the need for sleep. Process S accumulates throughout the day, and then dissapates during sleep. There is debate in the field on whether this interaction is independent of each other or dependent on each other or some mix of both. WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PROCESS S! Matthew Walker and other podcast scientist’s have talked about adenosine being accumulated that result in the drive for sleep, BUT there is not a clear consensus on if this is true and there are many other sleep regulatory substances(SRPs) that may account for the the drive to sleep. I argue that there is not one substance or thing that accounts for process S but a multitude of factors that cause sleep drive. Hell, it may not even be any accumulation of a substance and could be changes in neuron activity that occurs during wake. Again, we have no idea. We still don’t have a great understanding of gene’s invovled in the sleep process either.
  1. The gold standard for how we measure sleep is through brain wave activity that can get picked up by EEG or PSG. These allow us to distinguish between sleep stages. Sleep stages are characterized as follows:
    Wake: Characterized by alpha waves(high frequency, low amplitude waves) and the presence of high EMG activity.
    NREM(non-REM) sleep: Stage we enter after wake and is the stage where physical restoration and deep sleep occurs. This is characterized by delta waves( low frequency, high amplitude waves) and no EMG activity.
    REM(Rapid Eye Movement) sleep: Stage entered after NREM(in healthy sleep patterns) and is characterized by theta waves( looks similar to alpha waves, but has higher amplitude waves that occur occassionally). This stage is very similar to wake, except there is no EMG activity.
    This is the gold standard for measuring sleep and denoting sleep stages. So I don’t think we have anything just yet out there to achieve this gold standard, but we seem to be getting close.
    My issue with wearables is they aren’t measuring your actually sleep( since they can’t monitor brain waves) but instead measure characteristics of sleep stages, such as movement, heart rate, temperature, etc. So I look at them to be useful more as like a food journal except for sleep, where you can get a general idea of your sleep during the night but not the gold standard. Again, my issue is how are we actually enhancing sleep quality with these devices, when we still don’t understand the mechanisms of sleep.
    Some of the devices I have seen such as sound or stimulation have to be timed just right to enhance the sleep and can actually be detrimental and dsirupt sleep if they are not timed right( such as biurnal beats). I think there is also variability between individuals that make the sound/beat style not suitable for them. Some individuals like sleeping with no noise while other like some white noise, but that all is individual preference.

I think everyone needs to find what works best for them, here is evidence showing that individuals can not tell if they are truly sleeping better or worse as it is subjective, typically people can feel they are performing better but true quantificative studies show this is not the case and they aren’t accurately able to predict there performances on cognitive metrics, especially in individuals that are sleep deprived or getting less than 7 hours of sleep at night.
Finally about melatonin.
Melatonin is invovled in the timing of sleep onset(so it’s invovled in Process C). We all have circadian timing mechanisms that result in the preference in what type of sleeper you are(I.E. early to rise, early to bed or Late to rise, late to bed or in between the two). Taking melatonin at your the circadian timing can actually be deterimental to sleep quality. You can liken it as like an antibiotic for your circadian rhythm.

I am happy to help with any questions anyone has about sleep that I can answer.
Long story short, I think technology will get there eventually to where we will have the capability to improve sleep via wearables, but at the moment I do not think the technology is there yet.

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Thanks a bunch @Guywholikessleep

Any recommendations on how to sleep longer?

How about re how to fall asleep again if waking up towards the end of the night?

Last year I’ve more occasionally been waking up after 6.5 to 7.5 hours even if I had wanted and could continue to sleeping for 8.5 or so.

For myself - I use melatonin (5 mg slow release) to enhance overall sleep structure. Not to get to sleep. At 69 - sleep fragmentation, particularly the last 4 hours segment and rem related, is of a lesser quality. So I use melatonin to increase sleep spindles and sleep quality. Works to some degree.

Melatonin and the Circadian Regulation of Sleep Initiation, Consolidation, Structure, and the Sleep EEG “Administration of higher doses of melatonin (5 mg or more) prior to nocturnal sleep results in an increase in rapid eye movement (REM) sleep. These data demonstrate that melatonin exerts effects on the main characteristics of human sleep, that is, latency to sleep onset, sleep consolidation, slow waves, sleep spindles, an M sleep.”

I learn a lot from your concise commentary!

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In terms of sleeping longer, I would ask first if you are practicing sleep hygeine. Things such as hot baths/showers before bed, not drinking caffeine within 8 hours before bed, not drinking/eating 2-3 hours before bed, turning off electronic screens 1-2 hours before bed, etc.

If yes, then you could try magnesium or L theanine as a supplement and see if that helps. But I would say if you are getting 7-8 hours of sleep a night and not feeling tired in the mornings, then you really don’t need extra sleep.

I didn’t talk about it in my initial post, but 7-9 hours of sleep a night is well within the normal sleep range. Unfortunately the average adult currently gets less than 7 hours of sleep when I last looked at sleep stastitics, so that means the average person isn’t optimizing their sleep. Age is also a factor and other things can influence someones sleep duration, hard to tell due to individual variability.

Its perfectly normal to have awakening during the night, and its normal to have nights were you get less than 7 hours and sometimes more than 8 hours of sleep. If you have been feeling fine and sleeping fine, with no snoring or feeling super tired during the day, then I wouldn’t worry about your sleep duration too much, just as long as you are getting an average between 7-8 hours nightly for the most part. Another problem can also be the timing of your sleep. You could have genetic preferance for being a certain sleep phenotype( known as chronotype). Here is a quick questionare to find out your chronotype( https://chronotype-self-test.info/index.php?sid=61524&newtest=Y ). If you are trying to go asleep against your natural circadian rhythm, then your going to have issues staying awake or falling asleep along with staying asleep. Melatonin can help reset this timing. A good way to explain this could be night shift workers. We have a natural circadian drive to sleep during the night and stay awake during the day( we are diurnal creatures). What happens during night shift work, is that your circadian rhythm gets unsynched(makes sense since you aren’t following your natural rhythm in this scenario), but it gets even further complicated by the fact that when you try to go to bed during the day, you have a natural circadian drive to be awake. Essentially, while you may be able to sleep you actually fight against this sleep naturally due to our circadian rhythm, so you experience issues with staying asleep that is commonly seen in people who work shift work or night shift.

Another thing too, is how are we enhancing sleep? It’s an interesting concept, because what would you be enhancing? We measure sleep quality based on something called delta power. It is the energy of a wave in a specific frequency( the delta wave frequency in this case). In simplier terms, its the strength of cortical neurons firing synchronously during NREM sleep. Our thoughts are the greater the Delta power seen during NREM sleep, the greater sleep intensity and quality one is having. But again this is kind of hard to measure accurately. (Here is a paper that talks about different ways to measure sleep pressure.
(Period-Amplitude Analysis Reveals Wake-Dependent Changes in the Electroencephalogram during Sleep Deprivation - PMC) )
What exactly would we need to enhance in order to enhance sleep, especially when we know there are local differences in sleep states that can be brain region dependent. In other words, what exactly would you have to change in order to enhance sleep? Is it a specific brain region? A specific molecule? Electrical activity? Etc. Then on top of that, what sleep would it be enhancing? Would it be sleep in a local region or global sleep? Again gets very complicated.
Anyways, long story short, we don’t really know ways to enhance sleep in normal sleeping individuals. Focus on sleep hygeine and how you subjectively feel.

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Sleeping in socks might be a simple sleep enhancer:

https://podcasts.ufhealth.org/wearing-socks-to-bed-can-improve-your-sleep-2/

It might seem socks would make you too toasty. But counterintuitively, researchers say, socks help lower core temperatures, a process that assists sleep.

Chilly feet can raise the temperature by sending more blood, and heat, to core areas, according to the Cleveland Clinic, which explains: “So, what does adding in a fluffy pair of socks do? Those cuddly duds warm your feet, relaxing and widening blood vessels that constricted while cold. This improved blood circulation in your overall body helps release more heat through your skin.”
Dr. Michael Breus, a clinical psychologist and sleep specialist, says he has been prescribing the sock method to couples with sleep compatibility issues. Breus, a self-described “sleep matchmaker,” would recommend the partner who feels colder at night wear socks to bed.

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Consider taking glycine for sleep (@desertshores uses?)
But “At low doses, glycine has been found to activate mTOR, which is a key regulator of cell growth, proliferation, and survival. This activation can lead to increased protein synthesis and cell growth. On the other hand, high doses of glycine have been shown to inhibit mTOR signaling, which can suppress cell growth and proliferation”
So what is a high dose?
3gm at bedtime, triggers MTOR instead of autophagy? at time of sleep?
@RapAdmin thoughts?

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Are there any tips and tricks that improve exactly the duration and continuity of the deep sleep???

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Anyone have a perspective on this - seems like they have done some randomized trials, etc. @约瑟夫_拉维尔 @desertshores @John_Hemming @adssx @Guywholikessleep @Jonas @Elizabeth_Kirby @Bettywhitetest

Doesn’t looks crazy expensive compared to other things.

Marketing is of course 2024 slick:




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Two of their initial clinical trials:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-63385-1

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And they have a great founding team and scientists

Alongside Perry, who’s best known for inventing the ultrasound-based wireless charging technology uBeam, the founding Elemind team also includes Ed Boyden, Ph.D., a serial neurotech founder who helped start Cognito Therapeutics, as well as Known Medicine and Iota Biosciences alum Ryan Neely, Ph.D., in addition to a handful of other neuroscience and AI experts.

Here are some other papers

In the years leading up to its primetime debut, the scientists behind Elemind have conducted a handful of studies to back their technological approach.

In one, the results of which were published in Nature Communications in 2021, the electric medicine technology was proven able to suppress essential tremor within just a few seconds. Meanwhile, two others that were each published on preprint servers last month show how the neurotech could potentially accelerate the onset of sleepand strengthen the memories of healthy young adults, respectively.

And here is a good, recent write up

Interesting to see what this looks like:

will have additional features rolled out over the first few weeks, like deep stimulation to maximize the time spent in deep sleep

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I used the muse EEG for a while. It was quite good, but hard to keep in place. This strikes me as having similar issues.

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