#212

Yes - dosing once per week is fine.

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#213

I can’t speak to safety or efficacy, but in the spirit of sharing, I bought delayed release empty capsules from animalbiome.com. That way, I put half a pill into one and then it will supposedly bypass the stomach. Well actually, I chop up the half into many bits in order to fit it inside the size #5 capsule.

This works brilliantly, if my cat does not bite it!

I’m curious, when most of us dose weekly, or even less, what is the rationale on more frequent dosing for your dog. I also noticed this elsewhere. Is this some sort of calculation based on how long they live?

#214

Thank you. I will do that. Do you recommend a specific brand from India or a brand to avoid definitely?

#215

I am not sure about this. Hope someone who has experience comment on it. Never even heard you could do that.

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#216

I order the 1mg pill, pill split into quarters and dose in a small Animal Biome enteric cap.

My 5.1 kg dog is definitely experiencing an increase in energy, but also an increase in drive, barrier aggression and resource guarding. So in agreement with my veterinarian, we’re holding at .25 mg per week. I can also dose him twice per week if I feel he can use it. He’s a sport dog and it negatively impacts his focus, so I hold back before competition and big training days.

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#217

Zydus seems to be the most reputable provider, and Eris/Biocon Rapacan also generally good. I would avoid Kachella.

See these threads: What rapamycin brands are people using?

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#218

So, 1mg total in a month? And he weighs 5kg? That’s super low. Maybe I should do the same since you also see improvements. What brand is it? Sorry for multiple questions.

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#219

My and other’s experience here would be to start with a lower dose for 3-4 weeks, then titrate up if you dog is handling the rap well. Buy a pill splitter and Biocon enteric coated small capsules.

I prefer Zydus and Biocon in that order.

A full dose on a 14 y.o. could be tough. Please consult your vet. If your vet is not open to it, you can also get veterinary advice from Petspan:

https://www.petspan.com/longevity?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Search_Brand_US&utm_content=Brand_Petspan_Exact&campaignid=21614293649&adgroupid=169397793594&location=9031117&keyword=petspan&matchtype=e&network=g&device=m&gclid=CjwKCAiAneK8BhAVEiwAoy2HYYaUHKaOeRecOtrfMdq4KMcVjfnRxc3SB5_rMkMtyzalpEEMB-KwzhoChvIQAvD_BwE&creative=729750890071&placement=&target=&adposition=&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAA-FATY5xRnV2snQ7aMiAzh1ds61ig

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#220

I would also add I would not put your canine on Rap especially at 14 years without having a CBC senior blood panel with ALT & AST within range. Very important.

Rapamycin in not a benign drug and is regulated for a reason. Please use care and professional consideration prior to use on your animal companion.

2 Likes
#221

Just curious as why directly giving a split pill is different than putting the split pill in an enteric cap and give it?

#222

This makes a lot of sense and thank you for that feedback

I was told I should start my cats at .5 and then eventually give them a whole pill, but if a full sized human is taking on ave 6mg, I’m not sure I understand why anyone would consider 1mg on an animal that is between 5-13 pounds, especially because they can’t express they have a mouth ulcer and we most likely wouldn’t see a rash etc.

Without more information, I don’t plan to give them more than .5

And as you noted, my cats, due to their health issues, get blood work done every 1-3 months.

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#223

I wouldn’t recommend splitting the pills at all. That breaks the cover that prevents the destruction of the compound before it hits the small intestine. And at that point you probably are getting little to none of the active rapamycin ingredient.

Putting the pill (split pill or rapamycin powder) into an enteric capsule “might” work - but people here have reported that it hasn’t, so it likely depends on type of capsule, etc. - and its impossible to verify that your dog is actually getting any rapamycin into its system. There are no easy/cheap blood sirolimus tests for dogs like there are for humans.

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#224

Here is the study done on cats with heart disease where they used delayed release rapa. It’s how I got the idea for using DR capsules

@RapAdmin, I hadn’t caught that people here have reported the DR caps don’t always work. I don’t doubt you. Do you feel I’m making a mistake and I should potentially dose 1mg instead, even if this means skipping a week? Also, cats stomachs are much more acidic than a dogs, so would a human coated tablet even get to their small intestine?

In the pdf, I highlighted the dosing they used. The low dose of .3/kg worked in the study.

Now, I’m second guessing myself because if my math is correct, depending on their weight, these cats were getting much more than .5mg. I guess this is why I was advised to give them 1mg. If this is true, and if I used the same .3mg per kg for myself, that would mean I should take 14mg per week, which of course sounds nuts.

I’m horrible at math, so you won’t hurt my feelings if you tell me how wrong I am. And if I’m not wrong, why are these studies using doses for animals most of us wouldn’t consider on ourselves? It just seems wrong? Is it simply because most people don’t care about the wellbeing of animals in studies, so they went higher than what seems rational to achieve their goal? @Kelsey thoughts?

EDIT: @59vw I see you shared the dog study is .15mg/kg… that number makes more sense and is half of what they dosed the cats with.

Cat rapa.pdf (998.3 KB)

#225

The enteric coated capsules from Animal Biome are working for my dog. Remember the sores citing above when I titrated up too aggressively? It was likely similar to the canker sores one gets with rapamycin. Attia says he doesn’t mind the sores because he knows there is enough product in what he’s taking.

I’d note there doesn’t seem to be much of a coating on the Biocon tablets. There’s a sturdier coating on Zydus. With other brands of enteric capsules, your mileage may vary.

I’ve tried to source the smaller tablets and it’s very difficult to find a reputable distributor or not go to a compounder. Even if I needed to double the dose in order to see an effect on my dog, it would be worth it. but I still sit at a third of the study dose because I see a remarkable difference in my dog’s energy and arousal.

#226

We are not cats and cats are not humans. Our physologies are different from each other. The study you cite is small and includes felines who are already have serious cardiovascular issues. It’s hard to know if any subject succumbed due to or in part to rapamycin. But for those who survived, it doesn’t appear that there were many serious adverse effects.

We are discussing doses for longevity on this thread. To translate treatment dosages for cardiomyopathy in felines and longevity in dogs and humans will not prove to be an accurate baseline.

If you look at doses for organ for humans over 40mg, rejection, the loading dose is 6 mg with 1 mg per day and up to 15 mg with 5 mg/day for those on cyclosporine. This is every day, not weekly or three times a week

This is what you should focus on and not translationally why the dose is higher in cats than dogs or humans for longevity.

This thread is a fantastic forum for an exchange of ideas on a new frontier. But I fear that many of these questions should be directed to a supportive veterinarian. If you don’t have a supportive veterinarian of rapamycin, going to Petspan is always an option.

#227

I am going to give 1mg to my 10lbs dog (once a week). I am going to order soon.

I initially thought this was going to be little too much but this study dosage is way more, yes not dogs but they saw better results with a higher dose.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1053249802005715
Results:

Rapamycin (0.5 mg/kg/day) inhibited intimal hyperplasia, medial ECM accumulation and expansive vascular remodeling (increasing vessel circumference) in rat aortic allografts. This was associated with attenuation of the graft inflammatory infiltrate and a reduction in intragraft gelatinase, collagen III and tissue inhibitor of metalloproteinase 1 (TIMP 1) mRNA levels. At a lower dosage (0.25 mg/kg/day), rapamycin inhibited intimal hyperplasia and medial ECM accumulation, but there was a lesser effect on vascular remodeling. Lower dose allografts were also seen to have a more severe inflammatory infiltrate and larger amounts of intragraft matrix metalloproteinase 9 (MMP 9) mRNA than those treated with the higher dose.

#228

Has anyone seen this?

I am scared now!

#229

Why are you scared?

Effects of metformin, rapamycin, and resveratrol on cellular metabolism of canine primary fibroblast cells isolated from large and small breeds as they age

We found that rapa and res increased rates of non-glycolytic acidification in small and large breed puppies and basal oxygen consumption rates (OCR) in small and large breed puppies. Rapa increased proton leak and non-mitochondrial respiration in small and large breed puppies. Maximal respiration was significantly altered with rapa treatment but in opposing ways: large breed puppies showed a significant increase in maximal respiration when treated with rapa, and small old dogs demonstrated a significant decrease in maximal respiration when treated with rapa. In opposition to rapa treatments, met significantly decreased basal OCR levels in cells from small and large breed puppies. Our data suggest that rapa treatments may be metabolically beneficial to dogs when started early in life and more beneficial in larger breeds.

#230

From the whole article as much I understood, I thought this wasn’t good for small old dogs. Then I asked in another forum and someone did a summary and said It looks like Rapamycin may be detrimental to older smaller dogs.

  • Large Breeds: Benefit significantly from early-life treatment due to improvements in mitochondrial function.
  • Small Breeds: While puppies benefit from enhanced metabolism, older dogs may experience reduced mitochondrial capacity with treatment.
#231

But I also read real life stories that even smaller/older dogs benefited from Rapa. I don’t want to miss the potential good for my dog but I also don’t want to give him problems.

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