Here’s a reason to do HIIT… stop the RHR from getting higher. Increase in all cause mortality of 9% for every 10bpm increase in RHR.
From Alan Couzens, Coach, posted on X
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cl-user
#108
Zone 2 training is very efficient. Gains without the pain. The trade off is that it takes more time (per week) though.
High intensity 2 times per week is needed in addition though otherwise your cardiovascular system will plateau at a lower level.
When I started zone 2 training my resting heart rate was at 65 and it went down to 46(!) after 1 year of zone 2 training 6x per week plus 2x high intensity workouts (sprints). I also improved all my running PR(s).
That training method does work and, as mentioned by @约瑟夫_拉维尔, I also encourage people to listen to Stephen Seiler talks.
To know your heart rate zones you can use a muscle oxygen sensor like the Moxy That’s even better than lactate because it’s in real time. You can get the muscle oxygen saturation in real time in your running watch and adjust your pace to stay in whatever zone you want.
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Neo
#109
Have you compared its zone 2 predictions vs lactate tests?
I was kind of waiting for something kind the continuous lactate meter before dialing in my zone 2 training more than the talk tests and just looking at my heart rate in real time…
… but perhaps the moxy would meet the needs of what I was waiting for based on this all tech
(Some examples of “clm”s below
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cl-user
#110
Yes. I was using a blood lactate meter (with strips) before and I made a ramp test on a treadmill to compare them when I got the Moxy. The VT1/VT2 thresholds I got from the lactate and the Moxy were similar so I stopped using the lactate. In addition the Moxy gives you a lot more informations like when your warmup is enough for instance. I’ve been able to see that warming up takes much more time and method than what I was doing previously.
Tomorrow I’m running the Boston half marathon and I will use the Moxy to run just below the lactate threshold for 2/3 of the race and then decide what to do after that point.
As the temperature is going to be below freezing, the warming up might be more difficult and the heart rate can drift also so it’s less precise to use the HR during the race.
BTW I also run with a CGM but, as I eat low carbs and I’m fat adapted, the glucose during the is pretty much useless for me. I run fasted and I know that it will drop down to the 70’s if I’m in zone 2 but creep up if I’m over that.
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Neo
#111
Thanks a lot @cl-user
I think I’ll look into this more!
sorry, but what is VT?
cl-user
#112
These are the Ventilatory thresholds
[Edit] This is a better link: Validity and Reliability of Ventilatory and Blood Lactate Thresholds in Well-Trained Cyclists
Here is a chart from that paper showing the thresholds and the Maximum Lactate Steady State (MLSS) which is the max power you can generate where your lactate consumption matches your lactate production.
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If you are interested in the physiology of endurance athletes, you can dive deeply into the energy systems, muscle fiber types, etc. it is interesting stuff. But it isn’t necessary to get a handle on how to be healthy in my opinion.
FWIW, here’s what I do:
- work on a low RHR: lots of zone 1 & 2 (talking pace or lower) endurance work (blocks of 1 hour or more). Breathwork and meditation to turn up parasympathetic activation; this is a skill not a destiny
- hit max HR (the biggest number you see) a few times per month (figure out yours; it will tend to drop as you age)
- nasal breathing all the time (not just exercise) to stay tolerant of higher co2 which makes oxygen exchange more efficient
- do as much outside, with people, in unpredictable environments/ surfaces to get benefits in multiple dimensions. I need to be better about this.
- be careful as accidents will erase a lot of work.
VO2Max info:
Vo2max is a great marker but a person’s willingness to suffer during the test is a large determinant of the score. How important to longevity or healthspan does “willingness to suffer” play? I don’t know.
Vo2max is often measured on a per kg of body weight. So one way to increase vo2max is to lose weight. That makes sense but can lead to suboptimal behavior (upper body muscle lowers vo2max).
Vo2max isn’t a good predictor of successful pro cyclists. Often the super high vo2max freaks don’t make it. High vo2max is good but highest isn’t.
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Neo
#115
Very interesting. Have you tried this during night time also, eg with the “mouth tapes” that have become popular?
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Neo
#116
What’s is your perspective of metabolic and physical benefits of zone 1 vs zone 2?
Seems to me that zone 2 is almost “strictly” better from a physical results perspective (even if zone 1 can be good from other perspectives - more choice of activities, eg hiking, talking a long walk with people).
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@Neo I think the difference between zone 1 & 2 depends on each person level of fitness.
For an unfit person, zone 1 wouldn’t be much effort. Their low fitness makes everything hard. I would emphasize the talk test to stay in zone 2
For a highly fit person, zone 1 is significant but not very hard on the fit body. I’d emphasize more zone 1 if the program includes a lot of max HR work.
For fit but not elite people, stay in zone 2 or below, whatever makes you happy. Often this is based on the pace of your group ride. If your group pushes you past zone 2, get a new group until you get fit enough for that pace to be in zone 2.
I do mouth tape when I sleep. It’s a great training tool.
Neo
#118
Thanks Joseph, very helpful.
Do you have any recommendations for how to start / begin to try it out?
Any favorite brands or types?
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An important point that is almost never never considered.
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@Neo I use 3M micropore surgical tape. It is $0.52 per roll on Amazon. It works perfectly.
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@Neo As far as getting started, i do have a suggestion. Start by just placing a piece of tape over the middle of the mouth covering upper and lower lips. Leave the sides open. That way you can always get a big breath if you feel you need it. After a while, move to covering the entire mouth opening with tape.
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Arhu
#122
Polarized (80-90/20-10) doesn’t refer to time in zones but rather training day (not even session) distribution
Give Alan Couzens a follow on twitter. Here’s his website profile: https://www.alancouzens.com/
He’s one of the foremost experts in maximizing your VO2. Specifically he trains very elite endurance athletes and loves to share his knowledge. There’s a lot of myths on the VO2 world. I’ve already read one going through the responses you got.
In particular, it’s not true that you need to do HIIT to increase your VO2. Yes, it will increase it during an 8-12 week peaking session, but that’s not what you should be after. You should be after long term gains, which are best done via base building sessions in and around your zone 2.
The basics are that you need to get your body better at metabolizing fat. You do this through changing your diet based on how much you are moving. Sadly, to get the really good gains you need to spend lots of time in zone 2. That is a conversational pace. I’d suggest lower impact activities like walking, cycling, elliptical, and rucking!
This will build your base VO2 which will give you way more long term gains than what HIIT can give.
Also, I want to be clear. I’m not anti HIIT, I love HIIT. I do it to help me get in shape for certain types of races. But, it’s not the permanent VO2 enhancer that people think it is.
It’s an extremely complex topic, and following Alan and reading his stuff will give you a much better understanding than what I can put in a single post here!
https://x.com/alan_couzens/status/1706670358915694764?s=46
3 Likes
Arhu
#124
Andrew Coggan disagrees (every serious cyclist knows who he is as he is the person that actually defined the cycling power zones, TSS, CTS and much more). He also doesn’t have a very high opinion of Couzens (read some of his other replies on that forum)
There’s always going to be debate right? It’s not like Couzens says, “Don’t do high intensity training.” That’s not the case at all. He just promotes a good foundation via lots of time in lower intensities. I don’t think that’s super controversial either. This goes back to Lydiard. You need the foundation, then depending on what you’re training for you peak yourself doing the type of training for the event you’re doing. That’s going to be considerably different if you’re trying to peak in a one mile running event versus peaking for a marathon (sorry, I’m very running specific cause it’s what I know).
The key is making lifestyle changes that incorporate regular movement. Just doing HIIT a few times a week, in my opinion, isn’t enough. But, if that’s all you have time for, great, go for it.
In my opinion, this is about lifestyle and periodization. I always do a spring/fall peaking program which changes depending on my goals. I do my best in the summer/winter to build my foundation base back up. It’s a lifestyle that works well for me and my VO2 Max is considerably higher than others my age.
1 Like
Arhu
#126
He says our body can only respond with 3 adaptations: Neuromuscular, buffer capacity and aerobic capacity. So doing zone 2 or vo2max or threshold intervals end up eliciting the same adaptations
