What if the choice is getting to optimal body composition on a very light almost zero CR, without rapa vs over weight/over visceral fat, but with rapa?

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I think that starts to get complex (and very individual) very quickly. How long has a person been over-weight, why are they overweight, are they still exercising and just large (you can be in great shape but still be “overweight”)… and I think its a hard question to answer. I think there is a lot more potential risk in this scenario as disease processes may already be started (diabetes, blood pressure, etc.) that make the addition of rapamycin more complex and needing of analysis.

While we are all on a continuum (of fitness/optimal weight/disease risk, etc.) the more you deviate from the ideal for a given age, the more it seems (to me) that the risk increases, and the more you need professional medical expertise to track key blood metrics and other physiological metrics to make sure things are moving in the right direction.

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And another opinion on CR (or a variant of CR):

“While there are clearly some benefits of [fasting], it’s very difficult to measure what’s happening cellularly,” says Attia. Those benefits also come with a huge downside, decreasing muscle mass, which is why Attia hasn’t done a multi-day fast since 2020. “Today, I just don’t feel that that trade-off is worthwhile, at least at the extreme level that I was doing.”

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Had heard that Japanese and German universities are most reputable…

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i like tangents. tangents are good. it’s where new insights are formed (no pun intended, as this is especially true in science). what I pity about the modern state of science is that it has become intertwined with the public to the degree that we see such malformed incentives form as demonstrated by the Stanford scenario. back in the day (i come from a family of scientists too) science was more detached from mainstream culture, more isolated in its walled gardens. the democratization of information has surely been great for society, but as with anything, it’s a double-edged sword.

scientists, now realizing they have even more of a voice in broader society and have works that can boost their reputation in the public eye, naturally as humans will think about the incentives at play. and the extreme end of this is leaving your post to become a podcast influencer (we all know who this is). and scientists can always resort to appeals of authority with much more buy-in from the public because science is supposed to be the most objective of pursuits. that is why every podcast starts with ‘this is just about the information, this is not advice.’

the pity is that once these incentives are formed, they are hard to revert. and you see this proven to play out when scientists double down on their results instead of acknowledging that the hypothesis was false. this is why they end up falsifying data-there is too much at stake. how can you reconcile the cognitive dissonance that you’ve advocated for a certain biological model or medical intervention for the past 30 years, and now have been proven to be false? or, as a podcaster, if you have accumulated social capital by touting the benefits of a certain supplement or intervention, how do you walk that back 30 years later when it’s proven to be ineffective? so what podcasters do now is what I alluded to: plausible deniability.

what would i do as a scientist? i would keep studying new things, never anchor on one single focus area for my entire career (e.g. sirtuins or resveratrol). the scientists i have respected the most in my life are the ones who can repeatedly break new grounds in different fields. their reputation isn’t dependent on a single theory being true, and there is the added benefit of having proof of repeated breakthroughs. It’s why people like Elon and Zuck succeed; they’re willing to go into domains they had no previous background in and were outsiders.

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Don’t forget this paper too! Genetic Variation in the Murine Lifespan Response to Dietary Restriction: from Life Extension to Life Shortening - PMC

[we discussed it in kaeberlein’s class]

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Yes, that would back up what @CronosTempi said about the importance of genetics and his experience on the CR Society forum.

And I agree that likely genetics can even trump rapamycin or other interventions. Especially when, like in your study, they test 41 different genetic strains of mice.

After feeling a little guilty about derailing this thread, I went back to reread the whole thread to get back on track. It suddenly occurred to me to try out the “summarize this thread” button, hopefully to separate the wheat from the chaff and get rid of my tangential posts.

WTF!! It went from 67 posts to 14…and looking at those posts, there are some essentials like -

Now how is that a good summary of the essential Points?
Four of the 14 are clearly non-essential…
And a 5th was the much appreciated full-text article from “Nature”
My conclusion is that the “summarize this thread” button doesn’t work.

I appreciated @Neo posting the link to an old thread that I had missed.

But it reminded me that no matter how much reading of old threads I do, there’s always something valuable that I missed…thus the trying out the “summarize this thread” button…so much for that.
Hopefully there’s AI help available, I need to explore.

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New comment on the original mice paper: Dietary restriction interventions: lifespan benefits need resilience and are limited by immune compromise and genetics

The authors found that CR, especially at 40% restriction, extended lifespan 1.5 to 3 times more than IF. However, the more intense CR protocol reduced certain health markers, such as B-lymphocyte count and lean body mass, which could compromise disease resistance, especially in humans. This highlights the need for caution in applying CR or IF interventions for aging.
The lowering of metabolism has been proposed as a key mechanism by which CR extends lifespan. Yet, Di Francesco et al.’s findings challenge this notion; reductions in mitochondrial respiration, blood glucose, and energy expenditure did not correlate with longevity. Instead, they identified resilience to aging and stress-induced weight loss, particularly the loss of white adipose tissues, as a key determinant of longevity across all dietary groups
Intriguingly, a meta-analysis encompassing various murine studies hints at the possibility that DR protocols may impair post-infection resilience, raising concerns about its potential compromise of immune function.
Furthermore, the Di Francesco study highlights the significant role of genetic factors in lifespan, suggesting they may outweigh the effects of CR and IF. While genetics are generally thought to account for about 30% of interindividual aging variability, lifestyle and environmental factors contribute the remaining 70%. Given this, the modest impact of CR is striking, particularly since it is one of the most effective dietary interventions for aging.
Caution is necessary when developing DR interventions, as disparities may emerge between lifespan extension and the preservation of organismal fitness or immune function. Given human exposure to pathogens, biomarkers that reflect immune health will be essential to avoid negative impacts on disease morbidity, particularly post-infection. Moreover, the challenge of developing effective DR strategies is compounded by their reduced efficacy when initiated later in life.

So IF (one or two days per week) is significantly inferior to CR @RapAdmin.

The original paper also concluded:

Second, our findings more generally imply that the effects of DR on health and lifespan may be partially non-overlapping, and certain lifespan-extending properties of DR may in fact be detrimental to other aspects of physiological health. For example, although mice on 40% CR are healthy by most measures, we saw indications of adverse effects including life-long loss of lean mass, lower body temperature, food-seeking behaviour (an indication of hunger) and changes in immune repertoire that could potentially confer susceptibility to infection. These effects in mice may raise concerns regarding the potential risks of extreme DR for humans.
Finally, whether IF and CR would extend lifespan in humans awaits definitive investigation. Owing to differences in metabolic rates, the human equivalent of these DR interventions is unclear. Although further work is needed to dissect the complex physiological effects of DR, our findings suggest that human responses to DR will be highly individualized based on genetic context, that moderate reduction of caloric intake and regular daily feeding and fasting cycles are key contributing factors, and that specific blood biomarkers can predict an individual’s ability to benefit from certain physiological effects of DR, while withstanding others, to maximize its health benefits and longevity effects.

So even 20% CR could be detrimental. Moderate CR (~10%?) is probably fine, but it will depend on individuals.

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“When mice are handled (for a functional test, for example), they tend to lose weight as a stress response. Interestingly, the strongest positive predictor of lifespan was stress-related resiliency to weight loss after handling”.

Hahahaha I am gonna cry now. If I fast I lose a lot of weight, if I have the flu I lose a lot of weight, one day without going to the gym I lose a lot of weight…

Here is a podcast with Gary Churchill on this study. Very good overview of conclusions. In general CR does increase odds of life extension but not all effects are positive. Benefits probably do not come from weight loss. Diet represents ~8% of longevity effects.

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Actually, the CR research is a lot more complicated than that. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but a study like this is of very limited value, to put it diplomatically. The genetic variability is only one problem. A bigger problem is in the variability of the intervention itself in the studies. For example, the classic DR/CR simply means lower calories. But hidden in this, are studies that simply take the standard diet, and cut the amounts of food, this is sometimes called DR (dietary restriction), and studies that cut the calories, but re-balance various aspects of the diet, sometimes called undernutrition without malnutrition, and in human subjects, the distinction between CR and CRON (Caloric Restriction with Optimal Nutrition); in animal models of this, the researchers would cut the amount of food, but compensate the lost macro or micronutrients, sometimes both, so that even though the animal consumes less food like in DR, they get added vitamins and minerals to bring them back to 100% RDA, same for macros, by adjusting protein or fat or carbs proportions. So, imagine that you cut the food amount and end up with fewer calories, but also inadequate protein, so you adjust by giving fewer carbs, but more protein, you end up with same calories, but adequate protein. You can even adjust food volume, by providing greater or equal volume of food but less calorie dense, you eliminate or diminish the hunger. In human CRONies, some would consume huge amounts of calorie poor vegetables, like cabbage. One of the triggers of hunger is the signal of stretched stomach. A stomach that is stuffed signals satiety. You are stuffed with cabbage, not hungry, but low calories.

The point is, that the design of the studies matters a great deal. It is far beyond “cut calories”. To give an extreme example, semi-starvation on a poor quality diet in Africa results in a very short lifespan. A well designed diet with the same level of semi-starvation calories results in a longer lifespan than ad libitum free eating normal diet.

There were two CR monkey studies, where one showed CR longevity benefit, and one did not. There were several differences between them (including sabotage by lab techs who “compassionately” secretly added food to the CR’d monkeys, lol!), but the diet composition was one of the key differences - one of them had good diet as would be found in their natural environment, fruits, tubers etc., and the others had terrible quality processed chow very high in sugar. Of what value would it be to average these two studies and draw conclusions about CR based on that. Yet this is what happens when you grab a bunch of studies without accounting for the dramatically different protocols. Not worth very much, sadly.

The quality of the diet matters a huge deal in CR. And it goes both ways. For example, if you took the Standard American Diet, and simply cut the amount - what is responsible for the effect? Eating fewer calories, or eating less toxic food like sugary drinks, processed meats, snacks and other processed foods? Less calories, or less toxins? What effect does it have if you feed an animal a processed chow from ingredients they would not encounter naturally or you feed them their natural diet? Do you think processed food is physiologically harmful only in humans? What do you think lab chow is?

The design of a study is of paramount impact. If I malnourish an animal with key nutrients in inadequate amounts, I can impair their immune system. Starving Africans have very poor immunity and die in droves from trivial infections. In CR studies with re-balanced diets, the CR’d animals have superior immunity compared to ad libitum controls, as the immune system is upregulated by hormetic stress. In other straight DR studies, the restricted animals with inadequate nutrition had poor immunity.

Again, once you get deep into an area, and read tons of studies, you can spot poor design of studies, including metastudies.

I would be very careful taking this study conclusions at face value.