FWIW I’ve used Creatine for many years. It was not the first supplement I tried to help - prepare and partake in - endurance training and events, but it’s certainly one of the most trusted.
I don’t compete anymore but I do HIIT training every Monday, Wednesday and Friday and take creatine 90 minutes before training only on these days.
For the last two years, I’ve been taking Rapa and settled on 6mg a week for four weeks and I cycle off for two or three weeks.
My comprise for the conundrum of Creatine and Rapa together, is to take Rapa post HIIT training on Friday.
My reasoning: Creatine has a relatively short half-life of 3 hours. It’s largely gone by noon on Friday when I take 6mg Rapa (63 hour half-life). I have no more Creatine until Monday morning HIIT training. This gives Rapa about 60 hours all to itself.
There are many unknowns about what we are all doing with self- biohacking but this works for me. I think I’m getting the benefit of both Rapa and Creatine and I’m feeling healthy, fit and happy.
9 Likes
Just don’t take creatine on the day you take rapamycin. (assuming you are not a daily dosing with rapamycin)
“Creatine has a relatively short half-life of 2.5–3 hours, meaning that after this time, the concentration of creatine in the body will be reduced by 50%. To maintain elevated plasma levels, small oral doses should be taken every 3–6 hours throughout the day”
Though, I do wonder who wins the tug of war if taken at the same time.
As for loading, there is some controversy surrounding this. Personally, I just double the dose the next day. I take creatine because I am not an athlete and I am trying to avoid sarcopenia.
“But creatine supplements are rarely essential for athletes since your body actually produces creatine on its own and it can also easily be obtained through a diet of whole foods. More specifically, creatine is produced in your liver, kidneys, and pancreas, then stored as phosphocreatine in your muscles.Feb 1, 2022”
“Your body makes creatine from three key amino acids: glycine, arginine, and methionine. And while red meat and salmon are great sources for amino acids and creatine, vegetarian-friendly eggs provide a massive amount of these amino acids as well.”
Maybe, just eat an egg the next day?
Do Athletes Really Need Creatine Supplements? | U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA).
6 Likes
Is it only about the three hour half-life of ingested creatine, or does the above matter?
By taking creatine, one seeks to increase these stores. Would not those stores also act against rapa effect? If yes, then I don’t see where just stopping for a day would accomplish much.
3 Likes
True. And, stopping creatine for a day wouldn’t hurt your efforts to be stronger either.
2 Likes
Until we have an accurate and easy way to measure mTORC1, we won’t know.
But since rapamycin seems to be working for those in the forum with a lot more muscle than me, maybe creatine in the muscle doesn’t matter.
1 Like
Alani
#15
I am questioning the wisdom of using creatine with rapamycin. I am using 8mg of rapamycin weekly and cycling. My reason to use it is longevity. If i get the benefits of muscle strength retention it’s a plus.
I tried to order from forveda but they did not list rapamycin or sirolimus.
Alani
#16
Is Joseph related to jim lavelle the pharmacist /nutritionist?
1 Like
No. Jim Lavalle is Italian. Joseph Lavelle is Irish. Jim was a guest on the WiseAthletes podcast…we had fun with the name similarities.
2 Likes
Refined carbohydrates, like white flour, white rice, and sugars can raise IGF-1 levels , because they cause rapid increases in insulin levels, leading to increases in IGF-1 signaling.
Higher blood levels of IGF-I (Insulin-like Growth Factor), in older men was associated with increased risk of cancer death.
So Creatine raising IGF is good but sugars raising IGF is bad ?
This is the problem with taking things to the extreme like KETO diet or wearing CGM and avoiding any insulin spikes. Occasional spikes from fruit or occasional sweets may be actually warranted for health.
BCAA’s, Creatine and glycemic foods can activate mTOR.
Exercise is a selective mTOR activator.
Rapa is a mTOR inhibitor.
Other factors to lesser degree and undiscovered.
This is why it’s nearly impossible to figure the proper lifestyle based on molecular biology, we don’t know enough.
10 Likes
In the end it come down to genomic function. This require cycling.
1 Like
What are your Ampk activators?
Mainly the Yang Qi substances in TCM such as Ginseng etc.
Because there’s a difference between systemic and localised mTORC1 regulation. When it’s gone from the plasma it no longer has systemic effects. I wouldn’t worry about muscle stores of it counteracting rapa.
2 Likes
We know from studies of mice with IGF-1 genes knocked out, that the less the better with it for longevity. However, stuff that upregulates IGF-1 also have beneficial effects. Stuff like fruit rich in polyphenols and stuff like creatine that aids muscle strength and possibly cognition. If we could get those benefits without upregulating IGF-1 it’d be great, but we can’t.
EDIT: Well I guess we can get around it by ingesting polyphenols extracted from fruit. No way around it with amino acids though.
1 Like
David
#26
Great discussion! Aging is an mTOR activator, but stuck in the “on” position:). mTOR has a duality of too much and too little. Balance and modulation seem to be a common theme, but as @Dr.Bart says we don’t know enough other than to make best educated guesses.
If IGF-1 was such a problem the evolution would have taken care of it by now. Just like m-tor, the IGF-1 needs some activation. Laboratory mice studies are not a good model for humans living in the real world, different species and totally different environment.
I disagree on this point. Evolution doesn’t care what happens with us after procreation… if it shortens lifespan but allows you to grow faster when young, thats fine. I think its a classic case of antagonistic pleiotropy. What Is Antagonistic Pleiotropy? - PubMed.
5 Likes
So you are saying that in a mature individual the IGF-1 serves no positive role?
They have IGF-1 receptor blockers for oncology treatment… pretty nasty side effects. I would say just like M-tor, some IGF activation is needed even in older individuals.
Well, there may be a positive roll, but the Laron Syndrome people live full lives and their lack of uptake of IGF1 “seems to protect them against cancer and diabetes and maybe even heart disease and Alzheimer’s”.
So it can’t be that large a benefit can it?
