@KarlT Yes, you can have normal TC and LDL, and have high Lp(a). I have that, unfortunately. I personally would like to lower Lp(a), if I can, because it’s an independent risk factor, apart from TC and LDL.

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From the OUP paper @Neo posted above:
“The relation between Lp(a) concentration and these outcomes is continuous; elevated Lp(a) is a risk factor even at very low LDL-C concentration.”
" In a large primary prevention study, the association between Lp(a) and cardiovascular risk was abrogated at LDL-C <100 mg/dL. This finding should be interpreted cautiously, however, given limited patient numbers and potential over-correction of LDL-C for Lp(a) cholesterol. In contrast, the JUPITER trial showed that the association between baseline Lp(a) and first incident cardiovascular event was similar above and below median LDL-C (110 mg/dL), and even at low LDL-C levels (54 mg/dL), reinforcing high Lp(a) as a contributor to residual cardiovascular risk."

I just started a statin to reduce my LDL-C but it appears the increased risk will remain and Lp(a) may even go up. However it appears that lower ApoB from statins lowers your overall risk. PCSK9 inhibitors will lower Lp(a) and ApoB and look like the best solution at the moment (I believe @Neo is using this). Hopefully, as @adssx has talked about, obicetrapib is the solution we need as it is taken orally and seems to be the most effective for Lp(a). The trails I think show that it reduces Lp(a) by a substantial amount. What they’re still waiting to see is if it reduces ACM or heart disease deaths.

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Just wanted to upload the whole chart from that one paper Neo referenced (much of it got cut off in the post above.

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Is this due to interventions?

The distribution looks like this in the general population.
image

(reminder that Lp(a) is six times more atherogenic than LDL-apoB, and no being insulin sensitive won’t change your risk from Lp(a) or apoB. Nada. Zero).

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Wow check out tocilizumab!

Not sure about the safety profile, but seems to be approved for a form of juvenile arthritis. Actemra has a boxed warning for risk of serious infections.

30-40% Lp(a) lowering, and some IL-6 lowering too are perhaps big upsides.

Anyone have thoughts or know more about this for Lp(a) reduction?

@MAC adding you as this is first big needle mover I’ve seen in a while. @DrFraser @Davin8r @lsutiger any thoughts

Tocilizumab (Actemra)
Tocilizumab (Actemra) is a biologic medication approved to treat adults with moderately to severely active rheumatoid (RA), adults with giant cell arteritis (GCA), adults with systemic sclerosis complicated by interstitial lung disease, and people ages 2 and above with polyarticular juvenile idiopathic arthritis (PJIA) or systemic juvenile idiopathic arthritis (SJIA). Tocilizumab blocks the inflammatory protein IL-6, which improves joint pain and swelling from arthritis and other symptoms caused by inflammation.

Just went generic in the US, so price my fall drastically and similar in Europe mid last year:

On 29 September 2023, the US Food and Drug Administration approved Tofidence (tocilizumab-bavi) as the first biosimilar to Actemra (tocilizumab). Tofidence is first-of-its-kind biosimilar tocilizumab to receive approval in the US.

And

Europe, the first tocilizumab biosimilar approved is Fresenius Kabi’s Tyenne. This was approved in July 2023 and is available in both subcutaneous and intravenous formulations

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No as interventions currently are not supposed to make any substantive difference.

Both my wife and I and 35-40% of my patients on Quest CardoIQ are simply <10 mg/dL

There are a smattering in the middle and then a group well north of 75 mg/dL.

I guess this continuum must be addressed as there is no cutoff and simply being low I’d great.

If higher, it just increases relative risk.

I’d really encourage folks to listen to the latest Simon Hill on The Proof Podcast with the lipidolgist and the lean keto . I thought it would add much to my knowledge . I was wrong. Added a real appreciation for monitoring through imaging rather than necessary treating if no evidence of vascular disease.

Spend the time looking at this … it is a fascinating education. The point isn’t the ketogenic diet. The point is how to assess vascular disease risk.

Also, the concept of citizen scientist. This is so relevant to this platform. This fellow has no formal medical training and is an incredible expert. We have individuals on this platform who aren’t dissimilar.

Https://youtu.be/gfzxnz1sdi0

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What a fantastic conversation. The 1.5 hours (at 2 x speed), will pay some dividends throughout life along with some other podcasts like the ones Peter Attia had with Allan Sniderman and Thomas Dayspring. The way I heard it is that Cromwell was for treatment even if no evidence yet of detected disease multiple times although he did remark a few times that taking CAC can be used in that way. Parts of the conversation are to different audiences. Those skeptical of LDL and are LMHR going to astronomical LDL it is better they start treatment because of positive CAC than if not. Positive CAC is advanced disease according to Sniderman and I would rather try to prevent or delay getting a positive CAC. He is basically telling a smoker to quit smoking when they get lung cancer, which is good when there are a large audience who believes smoking doesn’t cause lung cancer.

image

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First - can I get the source of those graphs. I need them for my database!

You are right - this is a fascinating conversation, and is actually going to have me tweak my approach here and offer patients a reasonable alternative to saying that we must treat bad lipids. I will tell them much like Dr. Cromwell that I think it is safest to goal a lifelong apoB of 70 if Lp(a) is negative, and 50 if Lp(a) is positive so long as there is no established vascular disease.

However, for those who for whatever reason – and I still don’t understand the social contagion that has led to this, don’t want to manage this - then there is a sensible second option - but once there is evidence of plaque … my advice will become more intense to manage this before it becomes symptomatic.

Just a great discussion between these two really smart individuals.

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I was searching for this awhile ago and couldn’t find any, until I realized Google Images understands what is in the images in its database (including graphs), it seems, so then it became easier.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Distribution-of-coronary-artery-calcium-scores-among-men-and-women-on-a-logarithmic_fig1_8383857

This one seems also good:

https://www.newportbodyscan.com/ebt-coronary-calcium-scoring-guide/

CACWomen
CACMen

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Well, I, for one, HATE those graphs :slight_smile: But i have a CAC of almost 500 (and by now, probably greater… grrrr)…

Any ideas for me?

I’m on repatha, eat a WFPB diet, have eliminated almost all coconut oil for it’s sat fat, have significantly reduced most added sugars, trying to eat for fewer large glucose spikes, great weight… I should exercise more … other than that, is there anything aside from prayer?

Wow! A year ago Lp(a) wasn’t even on the radar of most of us and our doctors, and now it is A THING! I credit Peter Attia with first alerting me to it. Got tested and found it was 40 mg/dl. Here’s some N=1 experience since that time:

–Got a CAC score: 0.96. I am sure it would have been zero if not for having had the higher Lp(a) working on me for 74 years. Other lipids were good. Lifestyle/behavior all what they are supposed to me. I am sure my cardio situation is 100% genetic.

–Started Repatha which lowered Lp(a) to 29. But – glucose which had already been a little high (for years) now higher and Hb A1C into pre diabetes so asked for insulin and C peptide measurements. Which came back off the charts low. Message – if you are lucky enough to get on to Repatha – monitor your glucose and insulin. Driving down PCSK9 can impact the pancreas. The sequence by which an endogenous too-low level of PCSK9 causes the pancreas to reduce insulin is well documented. But that this can happen if you reduce exogenously with PCSK9i/Repatha --not so much. Tom Dayspring has said there are no risks to taking Repatha. Not. I am sure this is what happened to me as now numbers are starting to creep back up but still low, after having stopped the Repatha. (I do think that the Repatha might have further provoked what I feel might be a simmering LADA, which I have to get confirmed).

–Drive down inflammation – important for all health metrics, but especially for Lp(a) which is less harmful in the setting of very low overall inflammation. Depends of course on how high Lp(a) is. I exercise daily but am turning it up and swimming/using hot whirlpool three times a week instead of two. Of all the interventions, I personally have found that exercise and the heat shock proteins seem to be the most effective for reducing inflammation. (but have also stopped all alcohol and doubled down everywhere I can).

–Tell your children to get the Lp(a) checked. My son, it turns out, has it worse than I do.

–consider getting genetics tested. I did, after I discovered the Lp(a), and I found I had a 9p21 (C;C) variant: meaning homozygous for the risk allele, meaning --unusually susceptible from damage to arterial wall from inflammation and epithelial inability to repair. Don’t know it this is tied to the Lp(a) or a further additional instigator. from Promethease: " a recent study has shown that genetic variants in 9p(21) interfere with the interferon signaling pathway and effect the repair response of vascular epithelial cells to inflammation thus accelerating the pathological process of atherosclerosis leading to CAD." This single mutation puts me at 1.9x risk for cardio events.

–Surprised by all of this, as prior to the Lp(a) discovery, and subsequent genetics testing and CAD score I did not have a clue, other than some family history-- grandmother with diabetes and father died early from stroke – which I conveniently ignored as having been repeatedly told by doctors that my numbers were great and I was so healthy.

–I don’t know how to calibrate my overall risk – the contribution of (my overall very good)lifestyle versus (my abysmal) genetics for me personally – and would welcome any suggestions about this-- where to go for assessment.

–once again, N=1, YMMV, as they say. Hope this information may be helpful . . . .

PS: Rapamycin delivered a few days ago and debating whether to start . . . .even the very smallest dose.

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I had my second dose last week and so far smooth sailing for me… fwiw!

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Beth - yes, lots of things you can do. Do you have a specialist you see that understands all this? I can’t give individual medical advice on the board unfortunately. If you are in one of the states I’m licensed, I’d be happy to take a quick review of data (off board) and give you some free formal advice, but if you are outside of the 4 states I’m licensed in, I’d not be able to do more than provide general approach advice. Either way, message me and I can at least give you some general input, or if you are in AZ, CA, KY, TN then I can give you specific advice.

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Just finished watching that 3hr youtube discussion and yes, I learned a lot. Cromwell was excellent…clear, logical and to the point…the other 2 - not so much. Just brief mentions of Lp(a). But clear on the importance of other factors, mainly metabolic syndrome (BMI), blood glucose control, inflammation and blood pressure. And clear on the progression over time…that LDL may fluctuate up and down but that it’s the amount of time that it stays high that matters.
I unfortunately don’t have any blood tests from before my recent ones to know my history of LDL/ApoB levels, so I would need a CT coronary angiogram to really know my plaque levels. That might help me decide if I should be taking a daily low dose aspirin. All my other risk factors - blood pressure, HbA1c, HsCRP, BMI - look good and my ApoB/ApoA1 ratio is an acceptable .587. So, like @Deborah_Hall , if I hadn’t gotten an Lp(a) test, I would have been unaware of any problem.
How does the CAC test compare to the CT coronary angiography in terms of cost and difficulty?

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I’m in CA… I’ll pm you :slight_smile: And thank you!

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I also have just received my rapamycin and acarbose but decided to wait and assess the effects of just starting atorvastatin on my lipids and/or possible side effects before complicating it with rapamycin.
Here’s an article on the relationship between Lp(a) and blood pressure:
“Upon analysis, results indicated there was no increase in risk for cardiovascular disease events for those with elevated Lp(a) and no hypertension relative to their counterparts without elevated Lp(a) and no hypertension in fully adjusted models (HR, 1.09 [95% CI, 0.79-1.50]).”

https://www.hcplive.com/view/elevated-lp-a-can-increase-cardiovascular-risk-in-people-with-high-blood-pressure

Also this one on aspirin:
" Conclusions
Aspirin use was associated with a significantly lower risk for CHD events in participants with lipoprotein(a) >50 mg/dL without baseline CVD. The results of this observational propensity‐matched study require confirmation in studies with randomization of aspirin use."

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/JAHA.123.033562

CAC score is inexpensive and mine was covered. Have not had angiography. It is expensive. Had echo cardiogram with normal results. This shows function as in ejection fraction

Thanks. What was unclear in my reading about Lp(a) was whether the reduction in Lp(a) that you get from taking PCSK9 inhibitors actually resulted in a reduction in heart disease events or ACM compared to reducing ApoB (lipids) with a statin, bempedoic acid, ezetimibe or combination to get your ApoB to around 50. (even if Lp(a) went up slightly)

In the ODYSSEY OUTCOMES trial in patients with recent acute coronary syndrome (ACS), the proprotein convertase subtilisin/kexin type 9 inhibitor alirocumab reduced lipoprotein(a), low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-C), and cardiovascular events compared with placebo. This post hoc analysis determined whether baseline levels and alirocumab-induced changes in lipoprotein(a) and LDL-C [corrected for lipoprotein(a) cholesterol] independently predicted total cardiovascular events.

Alirocumab-induced reductions in lipoprotein(a) (median −5.0 [−13.6, 0] mg/dL) and corrected LDL-C (median −51.3 [−67.1, −34.0] mg/dL) independently predicted lower risk of total cardiovascular events. Each 5-mg/dL reduction in lipoprotein(a) predicted a 2.5% relative reduction in cardiovascular events.

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