#747

I never felt my LDL and ApoB drop from 120 to 48. It didn’t make me feel any healthier. However I trust the medical research that tells me I have probably halted arteriosclerosis and greatly reduced my CVD and stroke risks.

Not every benefit can be felt. Sometimes you just have to trust the science.

9 Likes
#748

If it reduces acm in rcts and/or extends lifespan in strong animal studies, it’s probably working even if you can’t feel it.

3 Likes
#749

And sometimes I do. Atorvastatin (10mg) and Ezetimibe (5mg) reduced my ApoB to 63 and I think the science was convincing, but I’m not pressed to go further unless a CIMT or CAC test tells me I should.

Yes, but that doesn’t tell me anything about my individual case. And the available testing - for off label tadalafil (for improved circulation in healthy people) - is not going to tell me much either. It may or may not be helping ME.
My point is that people here sometimes seem overly enthusiastic about the “miracle” of pharmaceuticals. Irrational exuberance some may say. But certainly they have their place.

1 Like
#750

This is a good example where the risk/benefit ratio might lean in favor of taking drugs rather than not:

2 Likes
#751

Low/no-added sodium diet with adequate hydration (urine production).

In order to ensure optimal hydration, it is proposed that optimal total water intake should approach 2.5 to 3.5 L day−1 to allow for the daily excretion of 2 to 3 L of dilute (< 500 mOsm kg−1) urine. Simple urinary markers of hydration such as urine color or void frequency may be used to monitor and adjust intake.

1 Like
#752

@AnUser , I’m shocked! You’re smarter than that…Why on earth would you post a study on water consumption needs - which obviously varies widely among individuals - with a study review financed by Danone, a huge bottled water company? A perfect example of why just quoting some paper on PubMed Central is pretty worthless.

“ETP, JHB, AD, IG, AI, CM, IS, TV and MV are or were employed by Danone Research during the writing of this review. LEA, WCC, SAK, FL, HRL, OM, JDS, IT and FP have previously received consulting honoraria and/or research grants from Danone Research.”

Certainly this was a factor in trying low dose tadalafil. Sure, as I said, there are physical declines with aging - like the five senses, graying hair, skin changes and for men BPH that most people see. I just don’t like the solution of taking a new pharmaceutical to address each thing individually and adding one new pharmaceutical after another that have to be taken for the rest of my life. But big pharma loves it.
Give me an option like this one - Altos lab: single dose injection of yamanaka factor increased survival in mice by 25%
a single injection that reprograms cells and organs to a younger age and I’m all for it, even if you do live 25% longer in a healthy and youthful state, only to suddenly keel over dead. Otherwise it’s the typical medical establishment bias - isolate one specific problem and come up with a drug or treatment just for that - works for big pharma, they get to sell lots of drugs. Eventually, and if they designate aging as a disease, they can start prescribing things like rapamycin that hit multiple targets at once and have a more holistic effect. IL-11 inhibitors and cell reprogramming even better. And in the nature vs science argument, nature is more holistic although science is coming around with more cross-discipline collaboration. That’s why the natural interventions - better sleep, diet, more exercise and positive outlook work best, because they benefit the whole organism. Screw Big Pharma! (sorry, got carried away)

@AnUser , yes, I know, rapamycin is big pharma, but they didn’t make it for aging.

1 Like
#753

Nonsense:

  1. Most “longevity” drugs that people take here are cheap generics. Big pharma gets zero money from them.
  2. If you choose the approach of taking these generics early, you might avoid complications later that would otherwise require you to buy some new big pharma drugs to treat whatever disease. So big pharma definitely does not like early prevention with generics.
9 Likes
#755

Nonsense.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/mtor-inhibitors-global-market-report-112000200.html

#756

How does this prove your point? Do you know anything about how patents and the pharmaceutical industry work?

2 Likes
#757

Why would a big company make something for zero profit unless forced to by some government program?

1 Like
#758

The article you sent says, “The mTOR inhibitor market consists of sales of branded and generic mTOR inhibitor tablets and capsules.”.

I was talking about generics. So this is irrelevant. Big pharma doesn’t do generics. Give me the profits made on sirolimus or telmisartan sales outside the US, it will be another another story.

Look at the profit margin of generic drug manufacturers: 12.8%!

That’s way less than in other industries. (Teva’s net profit margin is even negative.)

Of course, they make money, but the competition is so intense that most of the value goes to customers.

Then, if for you, money is a bad thing in general, then yes, pharmaceutical companies, whether generic or branded manufacturers, are all terrible. :man_shrugging:

4 Likes
#759

I guess you have a certain definition of big pharma that doesn’t include anybody that makes generics. As you said, generics aren’t zero profit.

Well, no, not exactly…but I do see the profit motive slowly creeping into all aspects of life as a corrupting force. Nobody should be happy about that - except those who reap the windfall…and a pox on them. If we don’t take steps to keep money, mostly from big corporations, like big pharma, out of politics, it will be us that pays the price.

#760

Typically, “big pharma” does not include generic manufacturers. They have different goals and are represented by different lobbying groups (for instance, in Europe, EFPIA for big pharma vs Medicines for Europe for generics). And they fight each other.

“Nobody should be happy about that”: I’m extremely happy about that. Only profit motive can help humanity find what is needed and fund innovation. Hopefully, one day, communism will be eradicated from the surface of the Earth. The only way to keep prices down is to increase competition by lowering barriers to entry. You can try to keep money out of politics, but keeping politics out of business is more efficient: “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.”

7 Likes
#761

Certainly we (or I) have derailed the thread. But at 743 posts, I expect @RapAdmin to step in and close it at any minute.
As in most things, my social/economic philosophy is neither pure communist/socialist or pure capitalist. I think unfettered/unregulated capitalism had it’s day (Milton Friedman et al) when people were more moral/ethical and the economy was growing with less stress. As competition became global with less domestic protections, it became more cutthroat with everyone pushing the boundaries in looking for an edge. This is exactly the point that you need incorruptible governments to step in and enforce rules that protect the environment, the workers, prevent monopolies and keep big business from running roughshod over small business (as we’re definitely seeing now). Should Facebook, Google, Amazon be able to buy up any competitor that might threaten them years in the future? How does that help society? That’s unfettered capitalism.
The warnings are all around us…the 2008 recession, the “Wolf of Wall Street” movie. Did it make you happy when he shouted out “I just stole grandma’s pension”. No regulation is a good thing?

1 Like
#762

This info on ion mobility analysis and descriptive cholesterol factors might be of interest:

1 Like
#763

In any case, pharmaceuticals are our best bet at the moment. People have tried the natural route for tens of thousends of years and it hasn’t helped them at all. None of the liquid metals, herbs or virgin blood helped at all.

3 Likes
#764

Well… the virgin blood might have been a little helpful, but perhaps better if Type-matched and supplied by IV (vs. oral use). :wink:

7 Likes
#765

Since when are diet, exercise and sleep not natural? And maybe it’s the not-natural pollution, forever chemicals, micro-plastics, stress levels, etc that are causing a lot of the problems.

But back on topic…the page from Quest Diagnostics posted by @Phillipe is a pretty good summary of things to track. The Lp-PLA 2 test is relatively new and looks promising (although expensive). It’s a measure of the specific inflammation of the arterial wall.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6360470/

Metabolic diseases are chronic disorders correlated to a greater risk of cardiovascular event and death. Recently, many data have sustained the biological link between microvascular dysfunction, oxidative stress, vascular inflammation, and metabolic diseases. The determination of new and specific blood biomarkers of vascular inflammation associated with obesity-related metabolic syndrome (MetS) and diabetes such as lipoprotein-associated phospholipase A2 (Lp-PLA2) could be useful to identify subject with high risk of cardiovascular events. Lp-PLA2 participates by a crucial role in microvascular dysfunction and oxidative stress showing positive association with metabolic disorders. In this review, we will argue the evolving role of Lp-PLA2 in predicting cardiovascular events in metabolic disease patients.

It has been estimated that up to 80% of premature heart attacks and strokes are preventable. In recent years, atherosclerosis has become recognized as an inflammatory disease whose activity can be assessed by circulating biomarkers. Along with C-reactive protein (CRP), lipoprotein-associated phospholipase A2 (Lp-PLA2) may now be considered as a biomarker with sufficient accumulated evidence to support its application in clinical practice. CRP is a well-known marker for inflammation. Patients with elevated levels of CRP have an increased risk for heart attack stroke, sudden death and vascular disease. Studies have shown a strong correlation between this enzyme and an increased risk for coronary and stroke events, independent of the traditional cardiovascular risk factors. Furthermore, Lp-PLA2 as a risk predictor has been shown to be independent of and complementary to high-sensitivity CRP (1-3).

Lipoprotein-associated phospholipase A2 is among the multiple cardiovascular biomarkers that have been associated with increased cardiovascular disease (CVD) risk. Lp-PLA2 appears, however, to be relatively unique in its high specificity for vascular inflammation as opposed to systemic inflammation, its low biologic variability, and its direct role in the causal pathway of plaque inflammation.

It is now well established that Lipoprotein-associated phospholipase A2 (Lp-PLA2) is intimately associated with Lp(a). Lp-PLA2 can be used to determine cardiovascular risk, both of coronary heart disease and cerebrovascular disease. Lp-PLA2 is an enzyme that has been identified as a novel risk factor for coronary events and stroke. Lp-PLA2 activity is an independent predictor of coronary heart disease and ischemic stroke in the general population.

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?contenttypeid=167&contentid=lipoprotein_phospholipase_a2

This test looks for a specific lipoprotein, Lp-PLA2, in your blood. The test is used to help predict your risk for cardiovascular disease and stroke.

Lipids are fats in your blood. Lipoproteins are combinations of fats and proteins that carry the fats in your bloodstream. If you have Lp-PLA2 in your blood, you may have fatty deposits in your arteries that are at risk of rupturing and causing heart disease or stroke.

This test may help your healthcare provider figure out what treatments would be best for you to prevent a stroke. Things that can be done to prevent problems include taking medicines that lower lipid levels and making lifestyle changes.

New research suggests that Lp-PLA2 may better show who is at risk for heart disease and stroke than HDL (“good”) cholesterol, LDL (“bad”) cholesterol, and VLDL cholesterol.

3 Likes
#766

@Virilius Here’s a question for you. Globally, how many centenarian men, alive today, don’t take statins? Or, let’s go even further…don’t take any pharmaceuticals at all?

3 Likes
#767

There are mice in the ITP control group who live even longer than the mice in the treatment groups. Does this mean rapamycin/acarbose/etc. are useless?
Imo it is pointless to look at outliers. I don’t have relatives who lived beyond 85 and don’t live in a blue zone so chances are that without medication, I will die in my 80s aswell.
Also, there are examples like Kissinger who got to 100 just by taking high dose statins.

3 Likes