I wonder why manufacturer stopped marketing it in EU? Maybe because it was approved only for DT1?

Yes - I suspect you are very right on this. The markets in Europe seem less ā€œcommercially corruptedā€ in the medication use area. I donā€™t think the drug companies have such free reign to pay off the doctors, and other intermediaries to gain market / use advantage as in the USA. And of course, in the US, Advertising drugs to the end user is a huge businessā€¦ as if the average person has enough knowledge or expertise to evaluate medications.

In theory - since the government and doctors are going to be primarily interested in patient outcomes, they ā€œshouldā€ use what they perceive as the most effective drug (though prices of the drugs to the medical system may vary, so there could be a cost / benefit analysis also going on).

This is all in theory - there may be other factors involved I donā€™t know aboutā€¦ like the slowness of adoption of new drugs in Single Payer markets due to institutional lethargy? Perhaps some doctors in Europe can comment on what the key drivers of medicine adoption / use is?

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Yes itā€™s in theory but in practice you also have negotiations like ā€œWeā€™re a French company, we have N jobs in France, we pay nā‚¬ of taxes in France soā€¦ you gonna be nice and give us a better deal for this drug? It would be sad if we were to leave France? :smiling_imp:ā€ And then they get to be reimbursed by the social security and not their competitor. Or they get a better deal. Still, itā€™s not as bad as in the US. Dapagliflozin out of pocket without an insurance costs ā‚¬/$40 in Europe vs $400 in the US?

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Yes itā€™s weird. They first marketed it for T1D. Then they withdrew it and said they would re-file it for T2D butā€¦ Never did! :man_shrugging:

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Started to look a bit more at MR studies:

Mendelian randomization revealing the protective effect of sodium-glucose cotransporter 2 inhibition on prostate cancer with verified evidence from electronic healthcare and biological data

Just a pre-print, but interesting - and a surprisingly large effect size?

In this study, Mendelian randomization (MR) was applied in 140,254 men (79,148 with prostate cancer), and suggested that genetically proxied SGLT2 inhibition showed an effect on 44%, 48% and 73% reduced risk of total-, advanced- and early-onset prostate cancer in the general male population

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.10.10.23296790v1#:~:text=Added%20value%20of%20this%20study,in%20the%20general%20male%20population.

SGLT2 Inhibition, Choline Metabolites, and Cardiometabolic Diseases: A Mediation Mendelian Randomization Study

Interesting that it boosts glycine?

Results: SGLT2 inhibition (per 1 SD, 6.75 mmol/mol [1.09%] lowering of HbA1c) was associated with lower risk of T2D and CAD (odds ratio [OR] 0.25 [95% CI 0.12, 0.54], and 0.51 [0.28, 0.94], respectively) and positively with total choline (Ī² 0.39 [95% CI 0.06, 0.72]), phosphatidylcholine (0.40 [0.13, 0.67]), and glycine (0.34 [0.05, 0.63]). Total choline (OR 0.78 [95% CI 0.68, 0.89]) and phosphatidylcholine (OR 0.81 [0.72, 0.91]) were associated with T2D but not with CAD, while glycine was associated with CAD (0.94 [0.91, 0.98]) but not with T2D

ā€”-

Outside of Mendelian randomization - different from different ethnicities?

Sodium-glucose co-transporter-2 inhibitors and all-cause mortality: A meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials

Does anyone understand the bolded part below? Does anyone have access to the paper?

Treatment with SGLT2 inhibitors was associated with a significant reduction in all-cause mortality (MH-OR [95% CI] 0.86 [0.81, 0.91] P < .00001). Meta-regression analyses found a significant direct association of treatment effect only with the proportion of Asian subjects enrolled, and an inverse correlation with the proportion of Caucasian patients. In conclusion, SGLT2 inhibitors reduce all-cause mortality in randomized controlled trials.

ā€”

Lower Risk of Death With SGLT2 Inhibitors in Observational Studies: Real or Bias?

Note also the issue with these trials being in sick people and not in healthy longevity optimizers:

In conclusion, the >50% lower rate of death with SGLT2i in type 2 diabetes reported by two recent observational studies is likely exaggerated by immortal time and time-lag biases

Lower Risk of Death With SGLT2 Inhibitors in Observational Studies: Real or Bias? - PubMed.

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So the only MR causal study for any SGLT inhibitor, seems to be this one, which I think is the same one discussed by both @adssx and me above.

Seems to point to Mendelian randomization verified causal reduction in all course mortality?

Has no one really looked at this for SGLT2 i??? Are we just missing it? Hopefully we will see some MR study soon (the number of MR studies exploded the last few years).

Genetic Variants in SGLT1, Glucose Tolerance, and Cardiometabolic Risk

Reduced intestinal glucose uptake may protect [this if from SGLT1 i and NOT SGLT2 i]

Using a Mendelian randomization approach in the index cohort, the estimated 25-year effect of a reduction of 20 mg/dl in 2-h glucose via SGLT1 inhibition would be reduced prevalent obesity (OR: 0.43; 95% CI: 0.23 to 0.63), incident diabetes (hazard ratio [HR]: 0.58; 95% CI: 0.35 to 0.81), heart failure (HR: 0.53; 95% CI: 0.24 to 0.83), and death (HR: 0.66; 95% CI: 0.42 to 0.90).

The effect size does seems quite large? Or what are you used to seeing in MR @AnUser

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For people who are concerned about UTIs and other infections, I wonder if intermittently taking a 'flozin with a shorter half-life would provide a better balance between efficacy and risks. Hypothetically, oscillating between on and off drug periods might make it harder for things to grow.

Remogliflozin etabonate is approved in India and has a short enough half-life that dosing is twice daily. In one study, the elimination half life was 120 minutes, suggesting a single dose would be effectively gone in about half a day. So maybe taking remogliflozin etabonate once daily before a main meal would provide some benefits while keeping things more hostile to bacteria and yeast.

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I understand (but Iā€™m not sure Iā€™m correct) that SGLTi might decrease ACM more in Asians than in White people? :thinking:

This paper is cited by this one: Ethnic disparities in cardiovascular and renal responses to canagliflozin between Asian and White patients with type 2 diabetes mellitus: A post hoc analysis of the CANVAS Program 2023

The 2023 paper actually concludes the opposite as it found a ā€œreduced risk in Whites (hazard ratio 0.84; 95% confidence interval 0.71-0.99) and a statistically non-significant increased risk in Asians (hazard ratio 1.64; 95% confidence interval 0.94-2.90).ā€

Probably better to avoid canagliflozin if youā€™re Asian? It might explain why no one uses it in Japan as well.

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Two new papers on SGLTi:

Differing Efficacy of Dapagliflozin Versus Empagliflozin on the Risk of Incident Atrial Fibrillation in Patients With Type 2 Diabetes: A Realā€World Observation Using a Nationwide, Populationā€Based Cohort: ā€œThis realā€world, populationā€based study demonstrates that patients with type 2 diabetes using dapagliflozin may have a lower risk of developing nonvalvular atrial fibrillation than those using empagliflozin.ā€

SGLT2 Inhibitors Squeak Out a Win in Patients Post-MI: itā€™s a news article commenting on the recent paper is previously shared that showed the benefits of starting dapagliflozin after a stroke. Itā€™s interesting that itā€™s now in the medical news and my friends who work in resuscitation rooms in French hospitals told me last week that they were discussing a lot using dapagliflozin after the publication of this paper. Itā€™s not yet recommended by the national guidelines for that in France but I assume theyā€™ll start using it anyway.

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I use remogliflozin, not because of its transient nature, but because itā€™s ā€˜dirt cheapā€™ from IndiaMart and other places (money was tight at the time). Now thinking of looking at other SGLT2 inhibitors.

Iā€™m going to do a head to head with canagliflozin (when I can get some) empagliflozin and remofloglozin and look at 24 hour urinary glucose output.

btw I take remofloglozin before each meal

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Adssx, have you come across any papers suggesting loss of lean muscle mass is a concern w/SGLT2 inhibition (over and above what normally happens with weight loss, of course)?

Havenā€™t read the paper yet, but both the title and the abstract and clinical trial name are about MI / heart attach / heart. Did the study pick up things in stroke too even if not designed for that?

This may not be the mechanism where most of the longevity - and even not TD2 diseases minimization benefits are coming from though. So if other than minimizing glucose aspects you may want to do broader bloodwork and testing.

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Chris, @J0hn and others thinking about the differences I looked a bit further into that and the more I look at it the more it does seem like one might want to SGLT1 also is not the same as SGLT2*.

ā€”

On the fact that SGLT1 is not the same as SGLT2* - not only that are they very different mechanistically, but also outcome wise have differences:

Thus far, the results from SCORED and SOLOIST (trials studying the SGLT1/2 inhibitor sotagliflozin) suggest that an increase in SGLT1 inhibition when added to SGLT2 inhibition may contribute to reductions in MI and stroke in patients with T2DM. This benefit is beyond what SGLT2is alone can accomplish

There are, however, major differences in the relative inhibition of SGLT1 and SGLT2 among the SGLTis.

Sodium glucose cotransporter-2 is a high capacity, low-affinity glucose transporter expressed in the proximal renal tubule where it is responsible for āˆ¼97% of urinary glucose absorption and 4ā€“5% of urinary sodium absorption in normal individuals, and its inhibition results in an increase in glucose and sodium excretion. Sodium glucose cotransporter-2 inhibition has been shown to be effective in preventing as well as treating HF, both HFrEF and HFpEF, in high CV risk patients with as well as in those without T2DM, and also in patients with HF but without T2DM.1 They may exert their beneficial effects through multiple mechanisms in the kidneys and myocardium and via altered metabolism. At the kidney level, SGLT2 inhibitors cause osmotic diuresis and natriuresis without reninā€“angiotensin system and sympathetic nervous system activation and with restored tubuloglomerular feedback, glomerular afferent arteriole constriction, decreased intraglomerular perfusion pressure, and increased erythropoietin secretion. Causing glycosuria, they lead to mild ketogenesis which increases myocardial efficiency. In addition, they inhibit sodium-hydrogen exchange, activate sirtuins, and induce autophagy in the cardiomyocytes All these mechanisms are potentially favourable for slowing the progression of chronic kidney disease (CKD) and HF. However, it is unclear which of them has a leading role. It remains true that SGLT2is are relatively well tolerated and have the potential to have a major impact on CV and renal outcomes in patients with HF +/āˆ’ T2DM and +/āˆ’ CKD.
Sodium glucose cotransporter-2 inhibition has, however, some limitations. For example, SGLT2is have not been associated with a reduction in non-fatal and fatal stroke in patients with T2DM despite a significant, although moderate reduction of about 3 mmHg in systolic blood pressure which, on the basis of prior epidemiologic observations and randomized trials in patients with hypertension, should have resulted in a reduction in stroke.4 A recent meta-analysis has shown a reduction in systolic blood pressure with SGLT2is in patients with diabetes by a weighted mean difference and 95% confidence intervals (CIs) of āˆ’2.89 (āˆ’3.37 to āˆ’2.40) mmHg.5 However, this was not associated with a change in the rate of stroke [relative risk (RR), 0.98, 95% CI, 86ā€“1.11; P = 0.72] with a modest 10% reduction in the rate of myocardial infarction (RR, 0.90, 95% CI, 82ā€“0.99; P = 0.03) in other meta-analyses.4,6,7 The reduction in MI associated with SGLT2i may be secondary to a reduction in preload and myocardial oxygen demands, which, in a patient with ischaemic heart disease, could reduce the risk of ischaemia and MI. Thus, both the lack of reduction in the rate of stroke and the modest reduction in MI may suggest lack of a primary anti-atherosclerotic or anti-thrombotic effect of SGLT2is.

Sodium glucose cotransporter-1 is a low capacity, high-affinity glucose transporter expressed in the late renal proximal tubule, where it is responsible for absorbing around 3% of urinary glucose in normal individuals. It is also expressed in the capillaries of the heart, brain, and skeletal muscle and, mainly, in the brush border of the small intestine where its inhibition results in increased delivery of glucose to the distal intestines with a decrease in intestinal pH and, as a result, alteration in the intestinal microbiome with an increase in short chain fatty acids and an increase in the secretion of the incretin glucagon-like peptide-1 (GLP-1) and a decrease in glucose-dependent insulinotropic polypeptide (GIP).8 The potential mechanisms by which SGLT1i reduce stroke and MI have been previously reviewed and include the finding that an increase in GLP-1 results in a decrease in platelet activation and an increase in atherosclerotic plaque stability.8,9 In preclinical models, SGLT1 has also been found in several other organs. However, despite these differences, controversy regarding the specificity of the antibodies used to detect SGLT1, the lack of a clear understanding of the function of SGLT1 in these tissues, and the likelihood that SGLT1 expression can increase in various tissues depending upon comorbidities such as HF and T2DM, suggest the need for further investigation of SGLT1i and SGLT1/2i.

The SGLT1/2i sotagliflozin increases urinary glucose persistently and urinary sodium excretion transiently and affects several other mechanisms similar to the SGLT2is in patients with normal renal function as well as in those with moderate renal dysfunction. However, since SGLT1 is also expressed in the intestines, its inhibition can delay glucose absorption even in patients with severe kidney disease. While a reduction in serum glucose does not appear to be critical in the prevention or treatment of HF in T2DM, it is likely of importance in the long-term prevention of the microvascular effects of T2DM such as retinopathy and neuropathy. The effects of SGLT1 inhibition on the microbiome in patients with T2DM and HF are incompletely investigated, but could also be of importance since alteration of the microbiome is associated with hypertension and the risk of stroke.9ā€“11 Importantly, SGLT1 has been shown to be upregulated in patients with diabetic cardiomyopathy12 and is associated with an increase in NADPH oxidase 2 and, as a consequence, an increase in reactive oxygen species in models of myocardial ischaemia, whereas SGLT1 knock down attenuates ischaemic/reperfusion injury.13 Mendelian randomization studies examining missense variants associated with a decrease in SGLT1 function have been associated with a decrease in the incidence of HF.14 This may be related in part to the effect of SGLT1i on the release of GLP1 and GIP, both of which have an effect on appetite and weight loss, and could be of importance for the prevention of HF in view of the finding that individuals with T2DM and abdominal obesity have an increased risk of developing HF compared with those with T2DM without abdominal obesity and those with abdominal obesity but without T2DM.14

Does anyone have a sense for how big the GLP-1 effect is from SGLT1i? Iā€™d not want to have a constant increase in insulinā€¦. Like one can get from taking ozempic, etc

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Sorry itā€™s not something I pay attention to in papers.

Aaaaah sorry :sweat_smile: I thought stroke was a synonym for heart attack in Englishā€¦ Learnt something todayā€¦ :grimacing:

On SGLT1: I checked all the ongoing trials of sotagliflozin and none of them have an active comparator with another SGLT2 inhibitor unfortunatelyā€¦ :frowning:

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I talked to a functional medicine specialist a while ago, she is professor of functional nutrition, and not very pro SGLT2i, but her concern was not muscle loss directly, but especially in physically active people using SGLT2i can lead to malnutrition and need to be much more careful about their nutrition to get optimal energy to recuperate properlyā€¦

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Would she say the same thing about CR?

I agree with here on both, but still think they both a pro-longevity.

@Davin8r do see my point about that SGLT1i does seem to ā€œpositivelyā€ impact the GLP-1 and GIP pathwaysā€¦ (but I think to a smaller extent than the obesity drugs).

Unfortunately I live in the UK on a limited budget, and Iā€™ve already done my blood work for the start of this year

Levine test score of
Chronological Age: 62
Phenotypic Age: 42.47
Phenotypic Age vs. Chronological: -19.53

I know itā€™s not ideal but I wanted to see how the three SGLT2 inhibitors (canagliflozin [when I get some], empagliflozin and Remofloglozin) measure up against each other. The one with the largest 24hr urinary glucose output wins. Iā€™ve also got a spare CGM which Iā€™ll run at the same time.

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I think itā€™s important to know why it decreases death.
For SGLT1 variants, they have a massive decrease in obesity and diabetes, at -60% for obesity and 40% for diabetes for every 20 mg/dl decrease in glucose absorption over 2 hrs.

That doesnā€™t help me since I think itā€™s unlikely I will become obese, ā€œThe Whaleā€, and hopefully not diabetic which I will track. If it impairs glucose absorption in the intestines, thus reducing caloric intake, it is not surprising to me. Obesity and diabetes risk go together as well. And reduction in that makes totally sense it will decrease death.

Did the ITP mice have decrease in weight?

Cool. Then you may want also look at your glucose peaks and the variance metric the CGM gives you. There are a lot of reasons why avoiding large peaks might be at least as important for longevity as keeping a low average level.