#909

I still think it’s important, but for other reasons, like wellbeing. But I can’t use the Dark Arts to trick myself into believing it has the same impact on longevity as apoB, I’d only use that rarely. I will do an exercise schedule that will optimize mood, I think the “massive amounts of Zone 2 exercise for longevity” seems a bit iffy.

Also if I exercise a lot I have to eat a lot of food, that must be whole grains and olive oil then. There is some SFA in olive oil, it might increase my apoB.

Yeah I do make sure to sleep enough in general, but that’s just for wellbeing. I will be a wreck if not. Some people have an anti-depressant effect from sleep deprivation though. I don’t drink coffee or use any other stimulants right now. However I don’t optimize it right now - Oura might give a bunch of poor scores. My sleep score for 2023 was 65 “Fair - Something may have disturbed your sleep quality a bit”. Above 70 is good. I had 8h 24 m in bed on average.

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#910

Do you practice any CR?

#911

Nah, I think I am done calculating food with a food scale unless I lose too much weight. I think I’ll just keep it simple. I’ll eat as much as possible but healthy food is the idea, so the more I eat the healthier I become.

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#912

A good data point in favor of the importance of sleep is that if you don’t sleep you die in a few days.
On the other hand you can be a super centenarian with very high levels of APOB.

Ten rats were subjected to total sleep deprivation (TSD) by the disk apparatus. All TSD rats died or were sacrificed when death seemed imminent within 11-32 days. No anatomical cause of death was identified.

Even just the deprivation of some sleep stages is enough to die:

Twelve rats were subjected to paradoxical sleep deprivation (PSD) by the disk apparatus. All PSD rats died or were sacrificed when death seemed imminent within 16-54 days. No anatomical cause of death was identified.

Looks like NREM sleep deprivation only kills a little bit more slowly:

The disk apparatus was used to deprive six rats of the portion of non-rapid eye movement (NREM) sleep with high electroencephalogram (EEG) amplitude (HS2). All HS2 deprived (HS2D) rats died or were sacrificed when death seemed imminent within 23 to 66 days. No anatomical cause of death was identified.

Here is a very recent paper (Jan 2024) presenting findings on the mechanism which was previously unknown:
A perfect storm: sleep loss causes systemic inflammation and death

they found that 4 days of TSD induces elevation of several cytokines, multi-organ dysfunction, and death. They refer to the observed elevation in cytokines as a “cytokine storm”. Cytokine storms have received increased attention recently due to their roles in organ dysfunction caused by acute COVID-19 infection.

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#913

In know its not a proof and there may be some reverse causality also, but given that there are logical dose response curves and there is so much mechanistic reason to triangulate against I thought the figures in this paper very interesting:

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The meta analysis also suggests that the amount of exercise that Peter Attia and Bryan Johnson do/recommend may be overkill and perhaps Mike Lustgarten’s extent is closer to ideal for longevity. (But I think in with Attia on the amount of low intensity zone 2 + extra hiking/rucking).

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#914

I hadn’t seen that study, thanks. I appreciate the limitations, but what an interesting study. Love the u-shaped dose curve bottoming out at 40 mins of strength training a week.

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And the 30-55% lower all cause mortality no exercise vs exercise.

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Looking at the underlying studies decent attempts were made to allow for confounders and reverse causation. A major motivator from studies like these is that optimum is actually very fews mins per week.

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#915

Thanks, but I’m sure there are randomized controlled trials you can use as well.

#916

I wonder if Charlie Munger might have lived another 20-30 years if he had done some exercise. Something we will never know of course.
Warren Buffet has played table tennis for decades so he does get some exercise.
Incidentally, I always easily have my best nights of sleep after an evening table tennis game.

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#917

Or give you delusional psychosis from sleep deprivation.

#918

It is an interesting question… for Charlie Munger’s generation of people, exercise was not really a thing people did after high school or college, except for some sports that people enjoyed (like tennis, golf, etc. occasionally for fun). It will be interesting to see how the current generations age. The younger boomers, gen X seem to me to be much more invested in the idea of exercise as a life style / quality of life / life extension type of activity, and going to the gym on a regular basis several times a week.

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#919

No disrespect to the old wise guy/Munger but he was on the heavy side all his life. I think given that he was overweight, he had a very long life. Usually overweight people die earlier, but never past 90 (that I can think of).

#920

Surprisingly no. I thought that too but most studies show that slightly overweight is better for lifespan but not health span.
The worst for both lifespan and health is to be underweight (BMI < 18.5).

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That said being normal weight is better for health:

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Here is the full Canadian study: Estimation of Life Expectancy and Health-Adjusted Life Expectancy by BMI categories:a national population level approach

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#921

I’ve not reviewed this specific study, but isn’t the general criticism of these studies that find “avg. to slightly heavier” live longer, is that there is a confounder of the “sick and underweight” mixed in with the “healthy and underweight” - so the conclusion isn’t very accurate.

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#922

Well, I was trying to be nice, because the right word to use in his case was FAT, and not overweight. Or if i still wanted to be nice I’ll say obese. As far as being a bit overweight yes, I do believe it is good for longevity. Myself am a bit fat, but only by about 15lbs and I don’t consider that to be bad, other than for the way clothes fit.

btw, i don’t go by standard way of if you are this tall you should weigh this much. I weigh about 235LBS at 6 feet tall, but I am body type almost exactly as mike Tyson when he was fighting, meaning I have huge bones and muscles. The lowest I have ever been (after i grew to my max height) was 200 in senior year in HS but if I shoed you the pic you’d think i was malnourished lol. Anyway, my ideal weight is 220-225.

#923

BMI and hip fracture risk:

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If someone was on CR throughout life, very low BMI, it seems like they could break their hip, which has a high mortality rate. Of course it’s not a good idea to be obese, but 22 BMI, in general, seems like the sweet spot in a U-shape curve, pending better evidence.

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#924

I think the bigger issue here is that BMI is such a bad metric. All the one biomarker only studies are too simplistic to capture anything really meaningful.

The only consistent take from these BMI studies is that a too low BMI is bad because if you have a very low BMI you are basically frail.
On the other hand a higher BMI can be more muscle mass, more bones density and/or even more “healthy” fat (ie subcutaneous but not visceral fat).

Yes that’s exactly the point.

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#925

agreed 100% <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

#927

I agree, I just turned 59, & the older I get the more resolute I am to maintain my current weight, bone health & mobility; we can lose them all so easily, particularly muscle, & it’s much harder to replace. I’d rather gain a little weight (which is easy to lose), than risk muscle loss.

I watched Peter Attia interview Don Layman recently, Don said 60+ year old patients confined to bed rest (eg post fall, hip/other fracture, etc) catabolise much faster (4x?).
I’d seen this rapid sarcopenia happen, but hearing that fact, & the stats for surviving the bed rest/hospitalisation following a fall, was sobering.

Perhaps more an issue for average 60+ women, with less attention paid to maintaining skeletal muscle, female “glorification” of dieting & thinness, & body composition changes, bone loss etc associated with menopause?

The loss of the perennially healthy Suzanne Somers threw me, bless her.
She slipped on a rickety rock-staircase leaving a yoga studio, breaking a hip.
Convalescing, she used a walking stick & misstepped, fell down her long, curved staircase, & broke her neck, & most of one side of her body.
She seemed to lose ½ her bodyweight & rapidly deteriorated; she was barely mobile & in great pain. This likely invited her latent breast cancer to return; sadly, she died within months.

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#928

Also tagging @SNK @AnUser and @Veronica

This is probably not true for longevity (even if it partially may be true for frailty).

If you are interested in digging into some key data see eg below.

See also Rapadmin’s point a few posts above.

And

And

#929

Not sure if this means that you are thinking to focus on extra food to avoid frailty?

Might want I consider focusing on extra resistance training as the main pillar of the plan to mitigate frailty - and then let that drive more healthy food/protein intake as your body requires.

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