#21

My stack may sound impressive but I’ve only consistently used about a third of it. Now that I am certain that it’s working I am setting up a usage calendar — which is actually a non trivial challenge and takes some research on its own, seeing as usage overlap of different modalities can lead to overtreatment and do more harm than good.

I actually knew of mesotherapy and bought the gun way back in 2019 but I haven’t used it once as I wasn’t sure what to inject with it. There’s plenty of cocktail mixes that are appropriate for surface application + microneedle assisted penetration but not ok to inject sub dermally.

Could you summarize what you’ve injected with the highest success / got the best results from? I’m primarily interested in augmenting my cheek volume and addressing beginning nasolabial folds — the skin surface quality is about as good as it can get at this point but rapid weight gain and loss over 4 consecutive pregnancies has taken its toll on those areas. Is there a cocktail you prefer for voluminizing effect? And can it be localized to go heavy on those areas (cheeks and nasolabials)?

I assume you haven’t done anything beyond superficial injections with nano soft needles or meso guns? Any experience with blunt tip cannulas?

I’ve come to regard PRF EZ gel as the holy grail of soft tissue regeneration (I bet Bryan Johnson will stop looking so creepy in the face once he catches wind — will replace his fat injections). But it’s too thick to go into a meso gun. MAYBE it can go into a nano soft needle but I am worried the weal might not get absorbed like with HA cocktails and then I’d be screwed (perhaps I will end up having to try it on my arm first to see what happens).

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#22

To get some volume you have to inject fillers. Meso is just for skin hydration and nourishment, it won’t give you any volume. Fillers can be injected with a sharp needle, not obligatory cannula. Cannula is usually used if you attempt to evenly distribute filler covering a bigger area from one entry point. When you move cannula in different directions from the same entry point, it won’t injure/perforate veins. However for cheek volume you can inject with a sharp in one spot and gently massage it for even distribution.

If you have much loose skin as a result of weight fluctuations, adding volume won’t help bc you’ll have to add too much and will end up having a pillow face. At this age, most docs advise to have face lift done and then adding volume. In my case, I have the same weight all my life, so my skin is not stretched and therefore I do not need much volume on my face.

Radiesse works well for volume and will last up to 2 years if not more. It has a semisolid consistency of implant (suspension of calcium hydroxylapatite in a gel carrier composed mainly of water and glycerin). It’s not HA based. I used it several times in the past, but stopped using it after my kidney transplant as it’s not recommended for the immunosuppressed. It’s painful if not used with lidocaine which has to be bought separately and mixed into the product (mixing valve is provided). The result is immediate and very smooth. It was my favorite filler.

Juvederm Volluma is also a great filler for volume and is easier to use. It’s already mixed with lidocaine.

I don’t advise to use Sculptra. Imo it has to be done by a professional technician only as it’s not possible to undo the result if you make a mistake.

For meso, I like Cytocare 532 and use it 4 times a year. It maintains skin well. Other cocktails, and there are many, are also good. They provide different vitamins in addition to HA.

PRF EZ gel imo has to be done only by a professional technician. I would never do it myself. It requires a cannula application (probably 25 g diameter) and has to be distributed evenly on big areas. Nor sure how you would correct it if needed in case you apply more on one side of your face. It definitely requires a specialist. It’s also much more difficult to work on yourself. I’m right handed and can easily work with the right part of my face, but it’s very difficult to have the same symmetrical result on the left part of my face bc of the angle of injection. Ideally, left side has to be done with the left hand.

To sum it up, it’s easier to go to a doc to do what you want. Only meso and micro needling are easy to do at home.

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#23

Makes me laugh when some spend a fortune trying to block electro magnetic fields whilst others want PEMF devices.

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#24

Sometimes it is the same people. I personally use a 5G mobile phone quite close to my head so I cannot see any reason to build a faraday’s cage around me.

PEMF is a curious thing. However, it has made a big difference to my digestion. In the sense that prior to PEMF if I went on a bender I would have loose stools, now I don’t. I still go on benders (ie binge drinking and I know that is not good for health as I have all the records to prove it), however, since PEMF this has not disrupted my digestion in the same way.

What I found is that starting PEMF caused quite a bit of diarrhoea in theory as it cleared out toxins. For whatever reason, however, that stopped after a while even though I ramped up the time (and power). With the HUGO Intense you can feel the intensity. I keep it on the threshold prior to pain.

I think it has the effect of improving mitochondrial quality.

#25

I think this is your device straight from the manufacturer

Don’t the purely arbitrage based margins of HUGO make you a bit sick? :slight_smile:

Found some great looking devices there from a few days of research that I’ll share later if anyone is in the market.

#26

In the end the question is the value of the device to someone’s health. I am not quite sure how many steps there are in this particular supply chain. Also it does not seem that this is exactly the same although it obviously has similarities.

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#27

Absolutely. One legitimate way to look at it, is “is the effect on my health worth the retail price?” I’ve been involved in the wholesale / distributor side of things from an another life though and can’t unsee and unknow how easy it is to bypass the retailer and go straight to the manufacturer. That there is the base model. I looked at the specs of each in terms of PEMF power. But when you buy in bulk from the manufacturer you can request little modifications for your batch (I see HUGO uses different coating on their double coil, for example.)

I’m curious, have you done any research on the effects of PEMF on brain function? From what I could see it all looked positive but none of the devices I looked into recommended usage around the head. They were mostly for PT / injury recovery / rehabilitation.

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#28

I have tried reading up on the effects around the head. I see PEMF as being something that can stimulate mitochondrial improvements at some depth within the body (although the power of the signal relates to the inverse cube of the distance). Hence it is something it would be useful to do inside the brain.

There is evidence that people use PEMF successfully in the brain. However, generally people are advised not to do this. That may be simply caution from the manufacturers.

What I did was go to a retailer that is not tied to any particular manufacturer as they are more likely to have the broader experience as to what the better machines are.

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#29

Holy crap that’s what I was thinking too!

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#30

Very much appreciated your entire comment. I’d like to take up this part though. While injection angle is crucial when working with a needle (unless we’re dealing with mesotherapy / very superficial small amounts), it doesn’t matter as much with cannulas, unless I’m really missing something. The whole point of the cannula is that you have a single entry point and then you move the cannula around under the skin surface to reach other points from there. Those points could be drawn on the surface with a pencil so you can hit each and deposit a set amount. They can be drawn to be symmetric around the Y axis of the nose. The only point about cannulas that seems unclear to me is how to gauge the injection depth properly — and maybe that’s when we end up talking about injection angle. But I don’t think that’s determined at the entry point of the needle tip in the skin. Anyway before I start learning cannula injection techniques in great detail via experienced cosmetic injectors’ Patreon channels (of which I’ve bookmarked a few), I think the best way to get started is baby steps: instead of EZ gel, use liquid PRF. That way I can use mesotherapy instead of deep injection via cannulas. Needles are a nonstarter for me due to the potential for vascular occlusion—non zero possibility even in the hands of an experienced injector.

Also having it done at the doctor’s is a nonstarter for me as it costs nearly $2400 per treatment and I want to make it a part of my routine, something I do every 4 weeks or so.

Check out this study:

Injectable platelet-rich fibrin for facial rejuvenation: A prospective, single-center study

Results: A significant improvement in skin surface spots (P = .01) and pores (P = .03) was seen at 3-months follow-up. Other variables, such as skin texture, wrinkles, ultraviolet spots, and porphyrins, showed a numerical improvement. FACE-Q scales that measure satisfaction with appearance all showed a significant improvement from baseline, including satisfaction with skin (P = .002), satisfaction with facial appearance (P = .025), satisfaction with cheeks (P = .001), satisfaction with lower face and jawline (P = .002), and satisfaction with lips (P = .04). No major adverse effects were reported.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jocd.13692#

They’re not directly measuring volume as a metric but you can see for yourself the before and after picture. Obvious gain of volume in the cheek area. The main difference between i-PRF and EZ Gel is that the latter stays put in place and the former undergoes resorption within 2 weeks. But if you inject it every 2-4 weeks anyway and keep prioritizing certain areas of the face, the overall effects should be continuous and more or less localized to where you inject — like with EZ Gel. The plasma exchange surrogate effect should be the cherry on top (removing red blood cells on the regular but keeping all the other goodies).

Thoughts?

p.s. in the study they used a 32 g 4 mm needle. When I looked that up it seemed to be a popular choice for insulin injection. Do nano soft microneedles come in 4 mm? Even i-PRF only stays liquid for 15-20 min so it would be nice to be able to speed up the injection process via nanosofts.

Also as to my own personal needs, I have very little skin laxity to speak of but it seems that when I lost my excess weight some came off my cheeks too and I have naturally very high cheek bones and full face. Including pic at 18 to give an idea. I’ve lost some of that width and it’s bothering me — the nasolabials have a small but high def fold forming and I just need to pump it up. I’m averse to filler and determined to wind back the clock through natural means only.
IMG_9111

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#31

I meant injecting filler with sharps when talking about angles and depths. I don’t inject with cannulae and therefore cannot advise. I’m not a specialist in what you describe and would never attempt to do anything like that on my face. When it comes to big volumes of fillers, it doesn’t work well on aged faces. Look at celebrities.

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#32

Pump it up with Volite. It’s easy. Don’t overdo it though because it’ll change shape of your nose.

#33

To be clear, what I’m trying to say is that I am not ready to start experimenting with cannulas on myself even though it seems like a relatively low risk intervention (compared to needles). I think, or hope, that I will be able to achieve my desired results just by injecting I-PRF (meaning liquid PRF — no anticoagulant, no heating to form gel, nothing but the top layers of blood centrifuged under certain conditions) via mesotherapy. It has a liquid consistency so it can be done via nano soft needles or a powerful meso gun — the kind of thing you DO with your favorite HA cocktails.

I’m just dead set against fillers so I don’t think I’ll do Voluma even though I know it will work, as far as restoring volume goes. The notion of using my own growth factors is much much more appealing. Did you glance at the study I linked to? I need just about as much volume addd as the woman featured in the study’s photos achieved in her cheeks. Nothing crazy. But PRF seems to restore all tissues and even improve surface level issues so it’s not an unnatural pillow face look like HA filler when overdone.

Also the process of making liquid PRF is very simple as it skips the gel making phase. You essentially just need a centrifuge, plastic tubes for the blood, a syringe to pull out the PRF up to the buffy coat, and a transdermal injection mechanism (mesogun or these 4 mm syringes or nano soft needles).

#34

For example, what I don’t understand is how Bryan Johnson would spend millions of dollars biohacking, if he could be paying a fraction of that doing the exact same protocol out of the US. The exact same drugs, bloodwork, procedures, supplements, and medical care is all way cheaper outside the US, with better quality I would say from personal experience.

I don’t think saying he spends $2 million a year on his longevity makes a point. He’s just overpaying on something that costs way cheaper to do in other places.

#35

How would you get the PRF? Isn’t this something they create by drawing your blood and using a centrifuge… will commercial groups do just this process for you?

#36

Yes, I looked at the pictures. Any process that involves blood and moving it from one container to another is risky bc of possible contamination. Everything will have to be aseptic. Why to go to such length if it’s possible to achieve the same with much easier methods (without poking your vein, drawing blood, putting it in a centrifuge, etc). Have you ever poked your vein? I did. It’s not easy and requires learning and practice. It’s very easy to perforate vein btw.

In other words, I would do a simple mesotherapy. For volume in cheeks, you could use Profhylo (4mm depth of injecting) and any meso cocktail for skin plumping.

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#37

I would need to learn to draw my own blood from a vein. I’m friends with RNs who make it sound easy to learn. On my left arm I happen to have a very good and prominent vein that pops in the crease of my elbow, and that makes it even easier. There are manufacturers who sell the end-to-end kits: needle, tube, vacuum sealed flasks that automatically draw your blood via negative pressure once you get the flow going with the vein. The centrifugation has to happen immediately after and the PRF must be used within 15-20 min.

The first few times I will probably pay a nurse to draw blood for me but the rest of the system is set.

The proper centrifuges cost $200-400 — a single time investment. Only the needle + vacuum tubes are the consumable parts.

I understand everything dealing with blood — both draw and injection — is not for everyone. But it’s definitely for me. I’d just need to follow a sterilization protocol religiously, meaning rubbing alcohol on the skin, freshly unsealed latex gloves, etc. The results are too promising for my lack of certification as a RN to deter me.

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#38

This one shows exactly how I’d intend to use it — even down to the subdermal injection method:

Here’s the centrifuge:

Here’s the disposable kits:

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#39

Wow - aggressive but with care and good guidance from RN friends it seems it would be doable. Please let us know how things progress.

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#40

Yep, now my process is, first I make up my mind that I can and will do it. Then I spend another couple of months doing more research on how best to do it — so I’m in that mode. Then I pull the trigger on the equipment. And I prevaricate and over-research for another month before I finally take the plunge and actually do it to myself. (I was reading this forum for months before I ordered rapa.) Got a bunch of other modalities to use in the meantime. But you’ll hear from me about this.

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