Here are the brands tested that I would not buy under any circumstances simply because the name is ridiculous:Earth Bare, Greabby Gummies, GreenPeople Formula, Satoomi, Vitamiscence, KoNefancy, BMVINVOL Formula, Deal Supplement, Genex Formulas, HivoNutra Formula, Nutriflair, Nutrivein, Sotalix, Thomas Remedies, Naomi Whittel, Toniiq, Vitalite Now, Sunergetic.

I removed only 5 names from the CR list as names that were not overly objectionable.

Only Now Foods was included as a brand that I would purchase without fear.

This is why I don’t pay for Consumer Labs.

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There are two ways to look at the supplement vs. drug evaluation;

  1. from the manufacturing standpoint, and
  2. from the research/clinical study & validation perspective.

Supplements have a the GMP requirement (good manufacturing practices), but in reality no regulating body (e.g. FDA) checks on this for any supplement company, so there really are no quality standards for supplements that are rigorously enforced. This is why you get the common suituation where supplements tested that are from Amazon frequently have none of the active ingredient, and may have other un-labeled ingredients. People will argue that the leading supplement companies seem to do a pretty good job at ingredient quality & manufacturing and that may be true, but its still not close to what a FDA-monitored drug company goes through in terms of quality control and record keeping.

The FDA tightly regulates the manufacturing process and reports for drugs (at least in the USA, much less so for foreign Pharma, as is outlined in this book: Book Exposes How Some Generic Drugmakers Ignored Safety And Committed Fraud : NPR
And, about 65% of US drugs come from India or China. Generally the generic drugs imported into the US seem to be reasonably good, but quality doesn’t seem to be as high as US and Europe manufactured. Geographic concentration of pharmaceutical manufacturing: USP Medicine Supply Map analysis | Quality Matters | U.S. Pharmacopeia Blog

On the research / clinical study side, there isn’t much research done by the supplement companies in part because there is no patent protection and lower margins for supplements. The research that is done on supplements is generally done by academic institutions, and they don’t do any clinical studies. All in all the supplement research is pretty minimal, but it is done by independent third parties who don’t have a financial stake in the outcome, which is always nice.

The Pharma companies do the best human clinical studies but they are incentivized to overstate the benefits, minimize the side effects, and they work to “financially incentivize” the doctors and other healthcare workers to push their products (though the rules around Pharma salespeople have gotten better over the past decade from what I can tell).

In total, the way I look at the two segments is that the manufacturing of medications by the largest Pharma (US, Europe and India manufacturers) on average seems much more likely to be a safe and effective medication, than is a supplement from a similar set of larger US/Europe/India supplement companies.

On the research side, there is a lot of independent academic research (broadly speaking) on both supplements and medications, but I would argue that the data is much better on the drugs being sold, than on the supplements.

And, while clinical trials done by large Pharma have their problems, there generally are not many comparable human types of human clinical trials with supplements. So, again, medications (in my view) are also much better on the research/clinical trial side of the ledger.

I have lots of issues with how Big Pharma operate, but manufacturing quality is not generally one of them.

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There is also Labdoor:

and for research summaries:

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You wouldn’t buy a brand that passed testing? That’s your choice, but I’m not sure what other criteria you are using to make such choices. I bought the Solaray brand of berberine based on the Consumerlab study.

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Consumerlab also has an excellent breakdown of all the evidence for each individual supplement as well, both positive and negative. I find that extremely helpful.

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Has there ever been a study showing an improvement in outcomes from berberine? Whether it is cardiovascular events, deaths, or all-cause mortality? Berberine is relatively much worse than other compounds, in my opinion.

A reasonable read of that single case (keeping that fact in mind while wondering why a one-off case was reported in the way it was), is the patient: a) had for six weeks been taking up to 6X the recommended dose of CBD oil from multiple sources untested for potency and purity, b) was experiencing the effects of hypotension during this six week period, c) added at an unspecified time (could be poor syntax) a very low dose (250 mg.) of berberine (also untested), d) demonstrated upon admission a prolonged QTc interval which returned to within normal bounds upon cessation of CBD and berberine.

Headlining this one-off case as an effect of berberine is unjustified. In vitro, berberine does demonstrate effects which might (or might not) translate to prolonged QTc interval in controlled clinical trials.

I will remain on the sidelines with respect to berberine for the time being but this case did not play and would not play any part in that decision. Since I occasionally record an ECG on my iPhone, I just went back to review my QTC intervals during the time I was taking 1,200 mg. of berberine daily (a period of about five years but I only have ECGs for three). They were all in normal bounds for my gender and age.

We should also keep in mind the scattering of evidence that metformin might have similar effects on QTc intervals and other cardiac metrics.

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Sure, but there is no proof of safety for berberine like there exists for pharmaceuticals. Nor proof of efficacy for outcomes.

I and others have observed that we know much more about metformin that we know about berberine. The LLM summary I posted yesterday reiterated that point and I don’t know anyone who would disagree with it, including those of us who choose to take berberine as I did for several years.

With all of this said, I do not see the relevance of your comment when my comment was focused entirely on the relationship between berberine and prolonged QTc intervals.

Some good news from nematodes (tiny worms). Thanks @AmyK !

Source: https://x.com/OraBiomedical/status/1767995488333427038?s=20

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Ha! Yay! I actually asked them to run berberine + sildenafil but they made a mistake and just ran berberine. But… statistically significant (3 day!) extension of lifespan! I’m eager to see if adding a pde5i helps or hurts. Go worms!

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It seems likely to me that pulsing interventions (e.g. berberine, metformin) which boost akkermansia levels would maintain a benefit beyond the dosing period. But i don’t know how long akkermansia levels would take to return to baseline.

Does anyone know of any berberine - akkermansia gut levels as end point studies. In particular studies which have a post intervention follow up to see if higher akkermansia levels are maintained post intervention.

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I could only find two studies that even mentioned berberine+akkermansia and they were not in humans.

“BBR increased beneficial bacteria, such as Akkermansia and Bacteroides, and BRB increased beneficial bacteria, such as Ileibacterium and Mucispirillum.”

“At the genus level, BBR and BRB treatment decreased Lactobacillus and Romboutsia, while BBR increased beneficial bacteria, such as Akkermansia and Bacteroides, and BRB increased beneficial bacteria, such as Ileibacterium and Mucispirillum”

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In the end with Berberine and many other molecules you need to either take it or not take it. In looking at it some time ago I did not identify any reasons substantial enough to not take it. Today, however, I watched part of this video which gives some reasons for taking it.

I like it because it is one of many HDAC inhibitors that I take.

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There is no proof of safety? No one is checking if people are dying from it, it can be undetectable if the mortality takes long enough.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You want a large clinical trial to show it’s safe, along with copious mice studies.

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As I said I did not identify any reasons not to take it. I did a search on Berberine and toxicity. I may have kept some records of what I found, but I have just done another quick search.

Berberine has very low toxicity in usual doses and reveals clinical benefits without major side effects. Only mild gastrointestinal reactions may occur in some patients.

In animal studies, and I mean side effects, not acute toxicity. If you gave 5,000 people berberine it would show what the effects on all-cause mortality, etc, would be.

Oh come on. It’s in food. Can you do that for all of your food too? Even then it would be meaningless for an individual. We’re all different.

They tested the Vax and we have Maddie De Garay still having trouble, while some bizarre hypervaccinator from Magdeberg Germany gets 217 jabs over 29 months and doesn’t even notice anything.

I like testing, I believe science increases our understanding and I work really hard to understand. I think it could be done with less expense and roughly equal results.

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I disagree, I think cycling interventions is also an option. Take akkermansia municipalis as example objective. Rhubarb, berberine, pomegranate extract will all have a beneficial impact. So there may be no need to apply antone intervention chronically. And side effects should be lower if individual interventions are cycled for short periods.

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Berberine isn’t food, it is a supplement of an extract with zero difference from other active drugs. Whether it is in some berries not many eats(I have found no evidence of this), it is still way of a different concentration. It is like screaming lovastatin is safe because it is in oyster mushrooms. That’s not how anything works.

Food has already been studied in large observational trials and clinical trials and we know what can decrease events & all-cause mortality and have other benefits

There is zero large trials on berberine that aren’t a summation of small trials i.e like mortgage backed securities. If you trust berberine might as well put all your money in a MBS. :wink:

A large trial does measure individual responses too. You can catch side effects that happens 1/5000, if for example so many took berberine in a clinical trial.

But I already can tell I am not going to convince you as you seem like an ‘appeal to nature’-fallacy kind of person, but at least it is for the record.