Thanks for the nice reply. For this specific point, I strongly recommend reading this article if you’re interested: Protein Science Updated: Why It's Time to Move Beyond the “1.6-2.2g/kg” Rule • Stronger by Science It mentions that seminal article, and many more.

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Ah yes, sorry, I missed that citation in your previous post and I went quickly through the study on the Morton metanalysis until the end, I like the abundance of graphs and forest plots but it will take some time to examine the plentiful details.

In the meantime, if we want to stick to recent guidelines and revisions of the RDA, the recommendations are surely higher, but I saw no trace of the amounts suggested by Peter Attia, Gabrielle Lyon, and others(excluding elite athletes).
I’m attaching an answer from GROK, known to be up to date on the current opinions drawn from all the material on the web, besides the scientific articles. The extreme (crazy???) amounts advocated by Attia/Lyion/others are only cited in elite athletes.

Expert Opinions and Guidelines

Experts increasingly advocate intakes above RDA for optimal health:

Group/Population Recommended Intake (g/kg/d) Key Experts/Organizations Rationale
Healthy Adults 1.0-1.6 Mayo Clinic, Harvard Health, PROT-AGE Group Better muscle synthesis, even distribution (25-30g/meal, 2-3 meals/day).
Older Adults (50+) 1.0-1.5 Stanford Longevity, ACL, PROT-AGE Counter sarcopenia, preserve strength; ≥0.4g/kg/meal.
Active/Athletes 1.2-2.0 (up to 4.4 for elite) ACSM, ISSN, Mass General Brigham Muscle repair, endurance; 15-25g post-exercise.

Experts like those from IFM note challenges in meeting 120g/day but stress its value for muscle beyond aesthetics. Guidelines from FAO and others integrate quality metrics, urging reevaluation for global needs.

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Something tells me we will not have a consensus on this topic for a very long time.

The answer is extremely likely to have a lot of individual variations due to a wide number of factors (activity levels, genetics, age, health, etc)

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And that’s confirmed by the wide scatter in the data illustrated by the plots, like those outlined in the Morton 2018 metanalysis

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Yeah but again, RDA is for the “average person” not “person interested in longevity”. I would like to believe I’m closer to elite athlete than I am “average person”, hehe.

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Well, now, I apologize that I’m suggesting a substantial logical mistake in the above.
There are many people interested in longevity who are following the suggestions of eminent biogerontologists and nutritionists like Valter Longo, Luigi Fontana, Walter Willet and Christopher Gardner. All of these luminars advise a protein consumption close to the RDA, or slightly above.
I also appreciate that you feel closer to an elite athlete, since that may constitute a major psychological boost. I also hope that your feeling is enough to convince the ribosomes to launch proportional translational processes. And if so, please share your secret!

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Ha, that’s a very snarky response.

I reckon if a person is actually hitting the gym and actually attempting to gain/maintain muscle, they are indeed closer to elite athlete than a sedentary person. Their body actually has a need for that protein that a sedentary person does not. So I think we should go for higher protein than the RDA, but definitely doesn’t need to be excessive. Every person should figure out what works for them, whether for training or for diet.

I also don’t personally believe that CR or low protein diets will always be beneficial in humans. We know that we get frail and experience sarcopenia with age and maintaining muscle mass is an absolutely critical part of having a good healthspan. IMO I’d rank the importance up alongside the basics like managing your LDL-C and blood pressure.

However, at the end of the day, we’re all taking guesses. I think people (including me and you, Attia or Longo) tend to believe the evidence they want to believe, and disregard the evidence that doesn’t suit their beliefs. We all have some sort of vested interest. I think Attia sells protein bars, and Longo sells the Prolon diet. For some reason, diet brings out some weird, kinda religious, reactions in people. Somehow it’s somehow tied to their identity or belief system, so if you tell a vegan that animal protein is ok, or tell a meat eater than vegans live longer, they’ll all lose their minds.

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Now, I’m glad we are speaking the same language. Almost identical. All your observations are sensible.
Also, maybe being a little naive, I don’t think that Attia is driven by interest, selling protein bars and jerks. He genuinely believes that, according to his muscle-centric, anti-frailty model, it is advisable to maximize protein, in younger and elder people. He provides a rationale, which I think is inherently flawed, but he provides it.
So, we are left with the huge question: Who is right? Probably nobody. or everybody, for some part of the population. We are dealing with a realm where it is evident that individual variability governs. Also, I have the impression that the mechanisms of utilization of protein and more specifically mixtures of amminoacids are not very much understood, yet.
My personal strategy is: optimize protein intake, prioritizing a bioavailable and digestible mix, in such a way that muscle mass is not lost and that the (obstensible) hazards of too much protein are minimized.

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LOW FAT VS. HIGH FAT
LOW CARB VS. HIGH FAT
LOW PROTEIN VS. HIGH PROTEIN

All of these are misguided premises of a pointless discussion.
It is more nuanced than just simple macronutrient amounts, it’s the details that matter.

The science on fat is pretty clear at this point. Extreme examples include trans fatty acid vs. omega-3. I would assume that 100% of forum users would in agreement on which to avoid at all cost and which to increase in the diet. Not all saturated fats are “bad” - pentanoic acid may actually quite beneficial.

Carbohydrates present a similar scenario. There are clearly good carbs like fiber and then there is pure sugar or simple starches with their high glycemic loads.

When it comes to protein, I think we are only beginning to understand how the source and composition will affect our health in the long term. Are those more anabolic amino acids like leucine, isoleucine, valine and methionine are something that we need to keep in check ? They stimulate M-tor, something that this forum is all about. Conversely, many members of this forum are already supplementing with glycine and forms of cysteine.

When it comes to sheer amount of protein needed, it definitely depends on weight and activity levels. Using universal one size fits all recommendations is as stupid as the common 6 glasses of water a day recommendations.

First of all, none of us here are professional athletes. Professional athletes train for an average of 20 to 40 hours per week, though this can vary significantly by sport, time of year, and individual athlete. Their easy work outs are your intense work outs. I spend many years as high level amateur athlete training about 10-15 hours a week, and I still wouldn’t come close. These people are a different species, extracting any data from professional athletes and applying that to general population is a fool’s errand.

I tend to agree with latest Stanfield recommendations of 1.2-1.3 grams/kg, although they still may be on top side of the range. The observational data from blue zones is between 0.8 to 1.2 I believe, and these tend to be very active people in general. The studies presented by Stanfield are compelling too. Seems like plant based protein may naturally regulate the amino acid composition associated with longevity. Remember, we DO NOT HAVE longevity studies for protein intake. So until we do we can only extrapolate from limited studies and observational data.

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Peter Attia dropped another podcast to deep dive into protein intake issue defending his position

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I listen to all of Attia’s podcasts and am a paying member, but i turned off this podcast after just a few minutes when it became adundantly clear just how incredibly biased both Attia and his guest are towards high-protein intake. They could have at least made an effort at a pretense of neutrality.

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I’m glad you said it! I hesitated because I’m always slamming him on his protein stance due to his conflict of interest.

I think he should be embarrassed to have released this particular podcast. I always learn something from his podcasts, but this was a big nothing.

He basically said
I hate talking about protein (he certainly talks a lot about it somehow :slight_smile:
I’ve said all this before
My listeners already know this from previous podcasts
BUT… people are calling out my poor protein bar, so I and another guy who financially benefits from my protein company will discuss it, even though there is nothing new here.
This episode screamed insecurity.

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Comically, Attia dropped another episode on protein today, but unlike last week, I thought this one had some substance and I got a lot out of it. It’s with Rhonda Patrick.

The biggest take away for me is he finally explained why he tells everyone they need 2 grams of protein per kg per day. It’s so if he tells his patients to have 2, and if that is a day they fall short, then they probably consumed the 1.6 that he believes everyone should have. I feel much better that he finally explained the 2, even if it’s not a satisfying answer.

Obviously, it’s an entirely different discussion why someone who uses such scientific vigor doesn’t simply tell the listeners what the number is he actually recommends vs giving us a padded number because he knows we will fail at times. This is where his conflict of interest is a problem because I have not personally noticed he does this on any other subject, but?

Rhonda actually references Stu Phillips in her defense of a min of 1.6 vs 1.2, but he himself has said 1.2 is probably fine for most people…. Perhaps he has said 1.6 at a previous time?

Rhonda also points out how people are not getting enough protein due to the RDA, but everything I’ve ever heard, and most recently from Christopher Gardner, is most people are consuming way more than the RDA anyway. This leads me to question the validity of their argument that having the ‘proper’ amount will finally prevent sarcopenia in the future elderly if they were already consuming more than the RDA anyway (perhaps there is some evidence out there that the people with sarcopenia were only getting the .8?).

I’m not confident that I heard this part correctly because it was so surprising, but they said if you are older and do resistance training, you gain almost as much muscle as when you were younger? Please take this sentence with a grain of salt becasue I feel I might have misinterpreted what they said, but I’m sharing it incase anyone else can correct me. It’s wonderful if it’s true. But either way, this demonstrates resistance training trumps excess protein.

Also, she seemed to say the 1.6 (or whichever number you choose) should be based on lean mass. To me, this means that people who are consuming x grams are already really consuming more than that number if non lean mass is taken into account. I have not done the math, so maybe that is a trivial number.

He did say if you are sedentary, you don’t need as much.

He emphasizes that consuming more protein than you need causes no harm, but I would say once you pass the useful threshold, you are consuming protein at the expense of fiber and all the other goodies plants offer … but of course, if it’s in order to consume more twinkies, he is correct. Perhaps there is no science that backs up my theory and I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt he might ‘technically’ be correct.

There were a couple of other things that struck me but I was driving and couldn’t take notes :slight_smile:

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Thanks Beth! I was going to give this episode a pass, too, but I’ll definitely listen to it now. To me the most pressing issue is the chronic mTOR activation with higher protein intakes, especially leucine-rich sources of protein like animal proteins. In the past he’s always casually (and condescendingly) dismissed this argument because it’s just an “acute” spike in mTOR, but acute spikes x 5 times daily, to me, equals chronic. Hopefully they addressed this.

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He does address that, but I don’t understand his repsonse in a way to convery it properly. To me, they basically said it’s like exercise, so what’s the problem… but I’m sure I’m missing a lot of nuance there :). Would love for you to explain it to me after you listen.

I also have a problem that he tells everyone else to eat that much protein and it’s fine regarding mtor, but that is easy for him to say when he is taking rapa to offset some of it, and most of his listeners are not or don’t have a doc to rx it even if they wanted to.

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That indeed makes a difference!
Edit: An 18 gram per day difference for me and I’m smaller than average!

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That is significant!!! You’ve inspired me to look up my dexa and figure it out!!!

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Thanks for thorough review. I was planning on listening to it next weekend. You probably saved me some precious time. Attia should have Chris Gardner on his show!

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Yeah, those were two disappointing super episodes for Attia. The first guy and Attia were basically having a bit of a circlejerk, making straw man arguments so they could keep agreeing with each other. It would have been FAR more interesting if he had somebody to properly argue the “low protein is better” argument, rather than somebody to just agree with him. The guest made some good points, pointed out some weaknesses and fallacies in certain arguments, but the whole argument about ultra processed food was so ridiculous I almost stopped listening.

And unfortunately I just don’t think Rhonda should be considered as an expert in this area. I feel like Attia blundered by having her on to discuss this. Rhonda has never been a researcher in this field. And if you look her up on Pubmed, she hasn’t published any actual scientific research for 10 years (her post-doc I assume). Since then she’s been a coauthor on a case report and wrote an opinion article on Vitamin D. To my knowledge, she isn’t currently a researcher, or a professor, or a physician seeing patients. She’s a full-time lifestyle influencer and popular science commentator… so I don’t see any reason she should be taken as an authority figure regarding protein intake. (IMO she tends to over-interpret literature far too much in general.)

I’ve posted the link twice already, but I’m going to post it again. This is the single best article about protein intake as it relates to performance: Protein Science Updated: Why It's Time to Move Beyond the “1.6-2.2g/kg” Rule • Stronger by Science

Protein intake and longevity would be a different question. And I think that entirely hinges on whether you’re exercising in a manner that the protein in your diet will be utilised effectively.

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