#175

Wow! Looks like I hit pay dirt on this post.

We have the authority right here. My chemist buddy has had it and thinks it is amazing. Looks like I need to road trip up to see you for a consult and treatment.

Seriously, I am very curious, but would want someone skilled and I could trust.

I bet many on the site have questions like me. Thanks Joseph.

2 Likes
#176

Sounds pretty sketchy to me as ozone is normally considered hazardous.

Show me the money! Oops, I mean actual scientific studies, you know, the randomized double-blind placebo-controlled type. Or are we just talking about alternative medicine here?

Why is ozone therapy illegal?

"The FDA prohibits the medical use of ozone, “In any medical condition for which there is no proof of safety and effectiveness”, stating “Ozone is a toxic gas with no known useful medical application in specific, adjunctive, or preventive therapy.”

Ozone therapy - Wikipedia.

2 Likes
#177

The difficulty is measurement

#178

The title is anyone trying something more edgy what an attack and Wikipedia as your source ??? Ouch…

#179

It is not that difficult, you would require access to lab equipment or a lab that has equipment.

Review;

“Best way to quantitatively measure Autophagic Flux”

https://www.novusbio.com/antibody-news/best-way-to-quantitatively-measure-autophagic-flux#:~:text=One%20of%20the%20most%20common,blot%20and%20immunofluorescent%20microscopy2.

1 Like
#180

Usually credited to Abraham Lincoln or Mark Twain, shamelessly I reply. ~

“Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt”

“Better I Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Post and Remove All Doubt” ~Joseph

1 Like
#181

I don’t see it as an attack - we try to get data driven here, good quality scientific studies are really all we can go on - so its entirely reasonable to ask for the data that convinces people that a given therapy is valuable. I’m also skeptical of ozone therapy - I’ve never heard of it and if its effective its reasonable to want to see the data.

4 Likes
#182

Agreed.

My thoughts are: this is the trying something edgy topic…

Questions… that challenge are great… stark opinions… well.

“Sketchy and show me the money” to a member that has stated he is an expert in the area for over a decade.

Maybe a rebuttal of … Help me understand isn’t ozone dangerous? Why is the FDA so against it? Would suffice… to have dialogue.

Knowing we try to keep personal out of it. Sometimes it goes off the rails.

Self selecting of being here on this site kind of indicates a strong person… not waiting to be spoon fed.

Thats all. My source on ozone therapy is a seasoned Ph.D. Chemist… with decades of teaching and research credentials… a guy not into fads or things that make no sense chemically and bio- chem. Friend for 10 tlyears and I trust his thoughtful information.

I might try it… with the right person… as I said.

2 Likes
#183

However, I want to measure autophagy in my body without cutting it to pieces.

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#184

I got one at home, doing it now and then to activate some repair and antioxidant systems :grin:

1 Like
#185

Ozone autohemotherapy
OAHT is practised today in all countries of Europe,
being first proposed, as we have seen, by Wolff in 1974
(9). Minor O3 autohemotherapy and major O3 autohemotherapy have been described; the former uses 5-10
mL and the latter 200-250 mL of blood. The technique is
simple: blood is collected in a glass recipient containing
either heparin or sodium citrate, placed in contact with an
oxygen/ozone mixture at concentrations ranging between
15-80 µg/mL for 5-10 min and then reinfused into the
patient. This is usually done twice a week for 7-8 weeks.
Both methods are indicated for the following disorders:

  • peripheral vasculopathy (11, 41, 42) Burger disease,
    atherosclerotic vasculopathy, diabetic vasculopathy)
  • chronic ischemic cardiopathies (43, 44) not susceptible
    to surgical treatment, acute cerebral ischemia
  • chronic virus infections (1, 45): hepatitis, herpes I and II,
    herpes Zoster
  • chronic bacterial and fungal infections (46, 47),
    refractory to conventional therapy
  • degenerative eye diseases such as retinal maculopathy
    of the elderly, diabetic ischemic retinitis, pigmented
    retinitis (with which Bocci et al have extensive experience: (1)
  • orthopedic pathology (48)
  • osteoarthritis (1, 2)
  • various pain syndromes (1, 2).
    To these major pathologies affecting a large number of
    patients we could also add the vast branch of aesthetic
    medicine. Here, however, we shall only consider clinical
    application for severe pathologies.
    Although many papers have been published all over the
    world, there have been few studies with experimental
    animals confirming ozone efficacy. Controlled clinical
    studies have only just begun to appear in the literature (11,
    41, 42, 49). OAHT is associated with induction of production of interferon alpha, beta and gamma, TNF alpha, interleukin
    (1, 2, 50, 51) granulopoietin (GM-CSF) and transforming
    growth factor beta (TGF beta), and it seems likely that many
    other proteins are also stimulated (1). An increase in
    intraerythrocyte SOD activity has also been observed,
    suggesting an increase in antioxidant defences. These
    modifications can be observed for hours and days after
    OAHT, suggesting that once leucocytes are activated by
    ozone, they migrate into lymphoid environments where
    cytokine release triggers other immune cells (52, 53).
4 Likes
#186

Since we’re doing quotes:

"I have a foreboding of an America in my children’s or grandchildren’s time – when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what’s true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness…

The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance”

― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

5 Likes
#187

I’ve tried to search for rapamycin in the skeptic ‘debunkers’, like David Gorski, but couldn’t find any. It would be interesting to see what such people say about it. A review of David Sinclair’s lifespan book seem pretty positive:

Like it or not most people are not going to be convinced by alternative medicine, and especially the mainstream media, and greater intelligentsia.

1 Like
#188

The word “alternative” as opposed to “science” creates some delineation issues. Some essential oils like Thymol or Carvacrol (Oregano oil) have good scientific evidence behind their use.

The key is that there is good scientific evidence for any particular approach.

Coming back to O2 vs O3. There is a solid track record of using high partial pressures of O2 for various therapeutic purposes.

There are papers indexed on Pubmed about Ozone as well eg

I may read up on this at some stage, but I don’t have it on my list to look at as a priority.

1 Like
#189

John,

Did you read the paper posted above?

Christina Towers, PhD
Wrote the posted paper when she was at University of Colorado (AMC)

Dr. Towers studies the roles of autophagy, apoptosis and cell death in cancer.

She is now at Salk
Her contact information;

References

Towers, C. G. & Thorburn, A. Therapeutic Targeting of Autophagy. EBioMedicine, doi:10.1016/j.ebiom.2016.10.034 (2016).

Klionsky, D. J. et al. Guidelines for the use and interpretation of assays for monitoring autophagy (3rd edition). Autophagy 12, 1-222, doi:10.1080/15548627.2015.1100356 (2016).

Gump, J. M. & Thorburn, A. Sorting cells for basal and induced autophagic flux by quantitative ratiometric flow cytometry. Autophagy 10, 1327-1334, doi:10.4161/auto.29394 (2014).

Zhang, Y. et al. ZZ-dependent regulation of p62/SQSTM1 in autophagy. Nat Commun 9, 4373, doi:10.1038/s41467-018-06878-8 (2018).

1 Like
#190

Nice ad hominem argument, but still no facts.

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#191

I did read it and I have read it again. For example:

" (a). To perform this assay, cultured cells with stable expression of mCherry-GFP-LC3 are treated with an experimental stimulus and then harvested for flow cytometry. The necessary controls include cells treated with bafilomycin-A1 for 24 hrs to completely inhibit autophagic flux, which will be used to set the flow cytometry gates (b)."

None of the paper suggests a mechanism for studying autophagy in vivo without removing or harming cells that are part of the creature being studied.

#192

No matter what bilge I decide to promote because of the placebo effect probably 30% of the takers or more depending on how well I promoted it, would declare “It really helped me”, “It changed my life” etc.

I am not against alternative medicine per se, but people have died thinking drinking silver water, hydrogen peroxide etc would cure their cancer or other life threating illnesses.

Just because autohemotherapy is practiced in Europe it is not a compelling argument. Homeopathy is practiced in almost all European countries, but it doesn’t mean there is any scientific evidence for its use.

Probably millions of people believe in homeopathy even though the premise was ridiculous to begin with and despite the fact that it has been thoroughly debunked.

Despite the flaws of conventional medicine it usually based on current science not some anecdotal evidence or that alternative therapies are effective simply because they have been used for centuries.

There is no compelling evidence for ozone therapy outside of topical use in dentistry and external wounds. I find it strange that all I find are anecdotal reports and very few animal studies let alone human studies. It is strange that autohemotherapy has been around for more than a century but there are so few actual studies.

Maybe autohemotherapy works, but where is the proof?

3 Likes
#193

I agree with what you are saying about alternative med and homeopathy included. I had years of personal experience with using homeopathy for all kinds of illnesses in my childhood. In my family (in Russia), homeopathy was widely used by everybody, including my grandparents, for everything - cold, arthritis, wounds, flu, coughing, you name it. Did it work? Looks like it did. Was it a placebo effect? My grandmother died at age 96 and the only medicine she ever used was homeopathy. I’m not implying that she lived that long because of homeopathy - may be without it she would live even longer. Who knows.

3 Likes
#194

Thanks for posting this, I had no idea they used it so much for joint pain. I have a lot of joint pain and have been using PRP. It works if you get the right guy. I’ve never been able to figure out why. This paper gives some clues.

If my daughter’s infusion center does this I should give it a try.

1 Like